Graeme Cremer is useless and overrated!!!

[bavuma_rabada]

Please desist from racialising this.

sloandog responded sincerely and logically, in what I think is the first time (to my recollection) him displaying this kind of restraint that is far beyond his years. He threw in his counter-arguments and questioned my reasoning from his point of view poking holes he identified. We'll agree to disagree. Schweet my bru!

Jaybro you can make up your mind on this link to see how Zimbabwe's spinners fared against the top 8 Full Members (hope Kriterion won't mind Bangladesh's exclusion, Utseya will since he has a 4fer against them) http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine ... pe=bowling

Is it through my "frustration of him being a forum favourite" as ZIMDOGGY suggests? Absolutely not. What I am frustrated about is the fact that guys simply want to acknowledge just how poor he is from a cricketing perspective.

What is a fact is that Graeme Cremer is not the best spinner in Zimbabwe, others are being held back from confirming that fact! Never has been and never will be! He will never be able to attack without hurting the team badly and if there were signs that he could we'd have seen that by now. What Utseya has is international respect. Articles have been written about him. He's been discussed statistically alongside great spinners many years ago (albeit for his economy). Graeme Cremer on the other hand has been acknowledged for nothing by anyone worth listening to. Only lauded in these parts, which is suspicious.

I never once thought about Utseya while writing this (only the abuse Hami cops in comparison to the poor Cremer). The difference in my case is I stated quite boldly that I would not have picked Utseya for the World Cup (pretty sure you guys would have picked Cremer wihtout a single FC match ). But I also admitted that he has outbowled many bowlers in that tour organised to Uganda(?). Even in the inter-squads matches (which booked Craig a CWC ticket). He continues to outbowl better bowlers in internationals. So on what basis can he be dropped unless he fails in domestic cricket...which also happens to be where Malcolm Waller failed, but guess where he is now, and were are the batsmen who did better than him!

[bavuma_rabada]

Rainsford is coloured. Mawoyo is Black. So even if you're coloured and deserve praise you'll get it. If you're Black the same applies.

So whatever Graeme Cremer is that doesn't matter. Only stats matter. The same applied to Jarvis in ODIs&T20s.

So for as long as Cremer is in the side he'd better be doing what tawac suggested otherwise he'll get it. Lots of it.

Bangladesh will play Tests in Zim soon if I'm not mistaken. No way Zim would play more than one spinner at hime. I look forward to watching Cremer. If he lasts beyond one Test I eat my hat. Let's see how he goes against Afghanistan first.

[foreignfield]

I think Sloan's post sums it up very well. Let's also not forget that Cremer was injured for a considerable time before his exile. I don't think the selectors did him a particular favour when picking him straight from the sick-bed (prior to the Windies tour) or the golf course. The best I've seen Cremer bowl has always been on the back of a lot of injury-free cricket. Ideally you would want him to have a proper FC season under his belt before he comes back into the side after lengthy absences.

I did not agree when Whatmore brought him back immediately, but I could understand his desperation: He had been a first-hand witness when Mushangwe's confidence got shattered in BD and Nyumbu also failed to impress. He probably thought it a safer option than to throw in someone totally inexperienced.

[Ming]

I'm not a huge fan of Cremer, I don't think he has what it takes to be an automatic selection. But I'm always happy to be proved wrong...

[jaybro]

Honestly you're splitting hairs between Utseya and Cremer, Utseya has a better run rate but Cremer better average but both are close, over all Utseya agains better run rate but Cremer much better average and wickets per matches ratio ......

Utseya the off spinner and Cremer are not setting the world a light but geez to say one is miles ahead of the other is not the case ......

Utseya the medium pacer though can't be taken serious ......

[bavuma_rabada]

I did not agree when Whatmore brought him back immediately, but I could understand his desperation: He had been a first-hand witness when Mushangwe's confidence got shattered in BD and Nyumbu also failed to impress. He probably thought it a safer option than to throw in someone totally inexperienced.

Cremer has been an embarrassment throughout his Test career. I don't see why only he should have the privilege of having countless opportunities to have his "confidence shattered". Despite his experience playing in Bangladesh, Cremer hasn't gotten better. I can't see how Whatmore would think Cremer stands a better chance vs better batsmen. But I get your argument.

Utseya has a better run rate but Cremer better average but both are close, over all Utseya against better run rate but Cremer much better average and wickets per matches ratio

As the link showed, Utseya has a better Average and Economy Rate than Cremer vs the traditional Top 8. We've seen Utseya tie down great batsmen, lead an attack and the Zimbabwe team heavily rely on him during years when Price was away. On the contrary we've seen Cremer smashed to all ends of the pitch by all-comers and he has hardly ever dominated in consecutive matches.

Utseya has the honor of being the only spinner in Zimbabwe to ever win an ODI Series Award and he did it in this series in 2006 in HARARE (not sure why Vitori is not listed as having won one).

[jaybro]

Stick to the stats and not your opinions which are clearly biased ....

Yes my bad Utseya has better economy and slightly better average but Cremer better strike rate but honestly they're very close .....

The other factor is that of course Utseya has been proved to be a chucker which really defames any achievements of his sadly ......

[bavuma_rabada]

The other factor is that of course Utseya has been proved to be a chucker which really defames any achievements of his sadly ......

cc Murali & Saqlain
Hopefully SLC & the PCB will ensure they receive the memo...

That kind of reasoning is sad because surely Saqlain one quarter of the game of cricket's greatest ever effortless artists (Saqlain, Warne, Mahela & Jimmy) would be disqualified.

[Kriterion_BD]

The other factor is that of course Utseya has been proved to be a chucker which really defames any achievements of his sadly ......

cc Murali & Saqlain
Hopefully SLC & the PCB will ensure they receive the memo...

That kind of reasoning is sad because surely Saqlain one quarter of the game of cricket's greatest ever effortless artists (Saqlain, Warne, Mahela & Jimmy) would be disqualified.

Which is why I'll always rate Warne above Murali who I think was a chucker. Its possible he had some connective tissue disease like Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome that allowed him to legally chuck, but unless thats proven, Murali was chucking illegally, IMO.

[gargamel]

The debate should then be based on who is the next best leg soinner .well the cupboard is quite bare Mushangwe post his Mangongo bust up has been lethargic and lazy,Mutombidzi seems to have abandoned bowling as batsman have taken a liking to him,Burl really not test ,Kiron Gayle no where near a squad ,Peacemore Zimwa frustrated and abandoned by the ZC system.The sad truth is Zimbabwe apart from the great Paul Strang has no leggies and we just don't know how to build them and maintain them,Dirty Joe is unfortunately in challenged and the best in his class the edge to me that he has is his batting over all other spinners who spend more time bowling Thanbatting .Cremer in his second coming in the shorter format for Mr has been a much improved player and has better penetration and control and it has shown with the wickets he has taken so I'm of the opinion that he is not the worst but all we have at the moment