i think the sh*t still stinks....alls not rosy

[bayhaus]

hhm those farm invasions certainly had RGM backing. 5 riot police can easily control a 500 war vets if given the go ahead. if the riot police tool care of roudy varsity students, war vets would be putsy peezy. They just needed to control ONE farm and set an example. In masvingo when the vets took over a farm a top Zanu honcho wanted that farm months after invasion. the riot police came and they got 24hrs to vacate.
That 2000 campaign was based on land to the people, and what better way to get back at the Brits who had rejected him? Jemisi pretty much sums it up.

[hhm]

I believe it is the government’s responsibility to govern the people not allow the reverse..... but who was managing the economy before the land grabs. The NCC referendum was a big mistake (also seemed a turning point in Bob’s mental state towards the people). I know a few farmers myself and their attitude is more of distrust in MDCs ability to govern (whether it’s justified or not is not really provable). Us ‘nuetrals’ have slight leanings I guess

Hard to argue against the fact that they were the government of the day, and the onus fell on them to keep things in order. My understanding is they did what was feasible under the circumstances. That loss in the Referendum ruffled him up big time! Whatever their abilities, no other party can govern in Zim, the ANC won't allow it, especially if it trade unionists, considering that COSATU is also breathing down their necks. Mbeki did everything to ensure the MDC doesn't succeed, now Zuma is following suit, only those under an illusion believe he's doing the opposite of Mbeki. Politics is never limited to citizens of a country. Look at how the West succeeded in arming, aiding putting a minority in power in Lybia, which they're now also trying to do in Syria. Democracy thron out of the window. So unless the west can get to SA(China beat them to it), Zanu will rule for decades.

Not sure how to respond to the other guys because they seem to overlook the fact that I said Zimbabweans, which meant not just the war vets, but even bogus mature ones, bogus ones who are way too young to have been war vets, as well we as common Zimbabweans low, high & middle class. Apart from ex-schoolmates, I know two guys from my old neighbourhood who forcibly got parts of farms during that time. Fact is Zimbabweans took their land regardless of their education, class, tribe or age - not Zanu or Mugabe! If it was a case like Lybia, which was concentrated from Benghazi, then the govt would've crushed it in an instant, as the Colonel would were it not for the west conning the 'UN' into a no-fly zone vote. However, the incidents were far too widespread, and isolated for the forces to mount a direct assault. Try researching on how depleted the army, police and their vehicles&weaponry were at the time. You might learn something.

I can't believe you're coming with that argument against sanctions to me Jemisi. Are you for real? Where have you ever seen whites imposing suffering on their own kin? Do you think all the development you saw in Zim in 1980, and the development all of you saw in SA in 1990, was achieved under sanctions. Be realistic! They were never under sanctions, maybe the Boks&Proteas, but definitely nothing to do with the economy! They traded freely, you just were'nt privy to those happenings.

I think hhm's portrayal of Mugabe as a poor old man who was taken advantage of by some nasty war veterans is rather dishonest. Mugabe was always a thug, it just took people 20 years to realise it.

At no point did I potray him as an old man being taken advantage by nasty war veterans. The was no way of dealing with that situation besides submitting to it's demands, it was just done incorrectly. The Zanu politburo, and JOC, is comprised of people who are far more radical than Mugabe! The US, UK & French leaders make him a saint in my eyes!

Eugene and Bayhaus, I never spoke of Mugabe endorsing or backing the invasions. I used the word ordered! Extremely big difference I must add! Of course Mugabe endorsed them. He's a war veteran rememember, along with ALL the army generals and commanders! Do you expect the to fight against their colleagues? This is black Africa, there are no defections my friend! Point me to single country on the world that is not run by the army and I'll rest my case! The army plunders and loots all over the world, that's why coups came into existance, and every single leader leaves in fear of the army! Zim is no different!

[betterdays]

Hard to argue against the fact that they were the government of the day, and the onus fell on them to keep things in order. My understanding is they did what was feasible under the circumstances. That loss in the Referendum ruffled him up big time! Whatever their abilities, no other party can govern in Zim, the ANC won't allow it, especially if it trade unionists, considering that COSATU is also breathing down their necks. Mbeki did everything to ensure the MDC doesn't succeed, now Zuma is following suit, only those under an illusion believe he's doing the opposite of Mbeki.

Zanu contributed to the circumstances... but OK, tbh i'm a little behind the times atm ... I last recall Zuma paying a lot of lip-service support to a stable power-sharing base in zim ...
as far as the invasions go i think there's little doubt that it was, at least in part, spontaneous (I had read 'ordered' in your post - and the early invasions were not ordered from state house - which is why i had nothing to argue with there), but Bob, with the usual machiavelian opportunism (i think you described that as "master tactician") gained more than he lost from it and Joyce was very soon calling for blood soaked T-shirts

[Conant]

Am not very qualified to comment on political events in Zimbabwe, not without some level of bias anyway, but one would think, however irresponsible and self serving Robert Mugabe was, so was mother country Britain, who abdicated a huge responsibility in their former colony and is indirectly responsible for the tragic events that followed thereafter.

Weren't they the first the endorse -- and actively support -- Mugabe as leader in the first place, ahead of the selfless Johbn Nkomo (we have heard murmurings of a rigged ballot by Margret Thatcher and her govt in favour of the former, which is yet unproven)? Is it not them and their press who turned a blind eye on the massacres that followed only two years after independence?

And then in 1997, after the Labour party led by thet infamous Tony Blair won the elections, Claire Shot, the Minister of Foreign Affairs for Britain wrote this tragicomic letter Honourable Kumbirai Kangai and Stan Mudenge, upon enquiries on how tthe Land Reform Program was to proceed, with the advent of a new government
http://www.africasia.com/uploads/zimbab ... part_2.pdf

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2003 ... n.zimbabwe

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2003 ... n.zimbabwe

In it the honourable minister asserted that, her being of Irish ancestory she did not see how her present government could be said to be directly or indirectly involved with present land reform proccess of the Zimbabwe gvernmnet. The cheek!!

" I should make it clear that we do not accept that Britain has a special responsibility to meet the costs of land purchase in Zimbabwe. We are a new Government from diverse backgrounds without links to former colonial interests. My own origins are Irish and as you know we were colonised not colonisers...

This willing buyer, willing seller basis was never going to cut it in an impoverished country and without these funds, who was suppposed to purchase land that was stolen in the first place? South Africa faces the same problem and at a much bigger scale!!

[brmtaylor.com admin]

I can't believe you're coming with that argument against sanctions to me Jemisi. Are you for real? Where have you ever seen whites imposing suffering on their own kin?

hhm, are you for real? How about the US Civil War? And if you meant kin in a racial sense (as I think you did) and not strictly in a family sense, then you can also throw in countless others like World War I, World War II, The American War of Independence, etc.

UDI humiliated Britain. There was no love lost between the Rhodesian and British governments during that period.

The Rhodesian government had to work through real sanctions and history shows that they did so quite successfully. When relations with South Africa started to sour they were left with virtually no trade routes as the other surrounding countries were in favour of the nationalist movement and had no genuine interest in helping Smith's government. What trading Rhodesia did was because the likes of Bredenkamp had the right foreign connections; it wasn't "trading freely" by any definition. Conversely, what sanctions have Zimbabwe ever had to work through? Top ministers not being able to have their vacations in the EU has had zero economic impact on Zimbabwe. Zimbabwe's economic down turn in the last 15 years is the doing of the government and only the government. Agriculture was their most productive sector and their biggest foreign earner. Then that sector was destroyed and the economy spiralled out of control. No matter how many times The Herald says otherwise, it had nothing to do with "sanctions".

Point me to single country on the world that is not run by the army and I'll rest my case!

Australia.

In it the honourable minister asserted that, her being of Irish ancestory she did not see how her present government could be said to be directly or indirectly involved with present land reform proccess of the Zimbabwe gvernmnet. The cheek!!

She handled it poorly, no doubt about that. Having said that I don't think it was Britain's responsibility to subsidise the land invasions. I believe there may have been something in the Lancaster House agreement with regards to funding payment for land under a willing buyer / willing seller scheme - and if there was then that should have been honoured. But unless there was still crown land in the country Britain's responsibility ends there.

[eugene]

Iceland is not run by the army, they don't even have an army.

[betterdays]

The Rhodesian government had to work through real sanctions and history shows that they did so quite successfully ...

Sanctions basically mean a narrowing of options but someone will always have more to lose than to gain so help will be forthcoming from someone somewhere. SA played no small part in propping up Rhodesia ... and "relationships went sour" (ie Smith was annoyed) because it was no longer a viable economic option for SA to do so.

[ZIMDOGGY]

I like 99% of zimbabwe fans think that not all ir right with how things are run. Yet i would have to say about Meths facebook comment, lets not read to far into it. I come from a small town of about 7,000 in Australia and i hear that kind of comment of cant wait to get out of here all the time. Gennerally it has nothing to do with the whole town but just two or three people and gossip. but i could be wrong.

Straight out, i aso have on occassion felt the same about sydney. albeit rarely.

but .... im not as optimistic as you...this is zimbabwe we are talking about. one of the lowest ranked country in the world to live in (officially by records) and one gripped by sanctions, a dictator, aids, poverty, etc.

i have no doubt the reputation of zimbabwe is worse than the truth.but its not paradise on earth lets be honest.


i tend to think given that Keegans words are a little differnt to ours, as a western australian and a new south (ndebele) welshman.

[hhm]

Good job Conant! Many people aren't aware of such facts you know. BRM feels she handled it poorly, and believes there should've been no compensation at all. I agree! In fact, no offers or requests for compensation should have come into the picture. Do you think we in SA will be looking to compensate anyone for the mines and everything else! Not a chance. Nelson & the Arch had them fooled! Given the option, even a nationwide vote will reveal an overwhelming majority against compensation for anyone! People's choice!

Australia? It's irrelevant to refer to states which are virtual 'protectorates' of US & Great Britain (in other words under the Israel - they control everything those two do)! Isn't the Australian army under the command of the Queen? You should know that.Anyway, I should take it easy on the Aussies. At least they got one of their top soldiers training wardens back in Zim's National Parks how to tackle poachers. Iceland? Come now eugene, you should know that's also a protectorate of the Yanks! Those criminals also pay the salaries of the Pakistan army, who isn't part of their payroll! Let me think......... nope, you figure that one out yourself! Welcome to the Anglo-American dominion - it encompasses the entire globe!

BRM, Zim is too small a country, and whatever little the Rhodesian govt could eke out under the circumstances was definitely not destined to be shared with the majority so it's pointless to attempt to compare the two. It was enough to cater for those they were most concerned about - too few to be relevant in the broader scheme of things. The misery of the majority will indicate that they were in contrast living as nobles. What counts is that they say they handed over funtioning structures after independence(which the black inept govt has since stuffed up), and my question is how did they manage to keep them running without assistance?

You seem to underestimate the extent of the role the US&GB played in Zim since independence, and ultimately the impact it created when they left. In that I haven't even touched on companies operating in Zim, but originate from those countries. Then calculate the potential earnings Zim is losing out on with the US, GB & the EU not buying (or selling) anything from them. If you factor in the unavailability of loans from Bretton Woods Institutions, then you begin to understand the crater that was created. Close you eyes and imagine China calling back all the money the US owes them and how the US will look like 5 years after that! I think you'd prefer to migrate to Zim all of you who are there now!

The bulk of all you guys in the diaspora were not working for Bob, Zanu or the government/municipalities! What happened to you employers? They ditched their Zim passport for a British one, shut up shop and left. Thing is they didn't sell their, properties or rent them to anyone, just shut up shop and left, waiting for things to (md)change! (I personally know of one wealthy family now based in France, that man has possibly the biggest and most expensive collection of vintage cars in existence - it's still there in 'some' building in Zim, unless he's found a wayto sneak them out). Why would anyone care about the Apartheid/Rhodesian governments, and how they held up to sanctions anyway! They should never have been in that position to begin with!

[hhm]

How did we find ourselves here........a 'relay' - Zimdoggy, myself then the finishing line disappeared!

Back to cricket! This is about players in Zim. Guys don't worry about Bob, Peter, Ozias or even Zanu! No use jumping ship, might as well make a different career choice before you even reach u19s! But if you do want to make a career out of cricket, just stick to what you love and make the most of it. Rahul Dravid shared interesting things about the background of most of the currnet Indian players, and sympathised with those who didn't make it. Your situation is no different. However you should keep in mind that there are multiple times more people and cricketers in that rich BCCI control land, who are actually far worse off than you will ever be.