Race Storm Hits Zim Cricket

Participate in discussion with your fellow Zimbabwe cricket fans!
Locked
hhm
Posts: 1816
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 3:05 pm
Supports: Matabeleland Tuskers
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa

Re: Race Storm Hits Zim Cricket

Post by hhm »

bayhaus wrote:..this is not a race issue. AC and those he is in cahoots with OZ etc are the biggest culprits in this saga and their wings need to be clipped.
What incentive does Coltart(i.e. plus AC & Co.) have to suddenly think up this proposal, shrink the time frame, and hasten it's implementation? His genuine love for the game, and a desire to make quality changes that will see Zimbabwe ranked 7th in Tests & ODIs by the end of the year?

Ozias may be after money. I don't think money is what AC-Commentator-Lifordia; Coltart-British kickbacks & Heath-Game Rancher are after. It's more a case of something of strategic importance, which naturally comes at the expense of a specific group of people. What is that called?
1Mawoyo 2Vusi 3Hami 4Taylor(c) 5Craig 6Matsi 7Taibu(wk) 8Elton 9Cremer 10Rainsford 11Mpofu 12Jarvis

User avatar
CrimsonAvenger
Posts: 9847
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2007 2:57 am
Supports: Mountaineers
Location: India

Re: Race Storm Hits Zim Cricket

Post by CrimsonAvenger »

Coltart's latest response: http://allafrica.com/stories/2013012107 ... ?viewall=1
ROBSON Sharuko this morning (Saturday) in The Herald poses the following questions which he says I won't answer.

He writes:

"FOR everything that Education, Sport, Arts and Culture Minister David Coltart has said to back his controversial package of measures guiding the appointment of national team selectors, there is one fundamental question he hasn't confronted. It's either he has deliberately skipped it or simply ignored it.

Do we have people in this country whose ambitions to play for the national team were blocked because of the colour of their skin?

And, if that is the case, is it fair, 33 years down the Independence journey, to re-open old wounds and draft measures that will elbow those people, out of their sporting structures, because they happened to have been victims of racial prejudice in the past?"

Whilst I am reluctant to perpetuate this debate as the questions have been put directly to me I am obliged to answer them immediately.

I have no doubt that because of the injustice of racial discrimination in the past that there are many people whose ambitions to play for their national team were blocked because of racial discrimination.

I am keenly aware of that and have never been an apologist for the racist policies of the Rhodesian Front and would never want to be part of a system which sought in any way, directly or indirectly, to bring the horrors of that system back in any form.


I think that my professional record over the last 30 years since I returned to Zimbabwe shows that I have embraced a multi racial Zimbabwe wholeheartedly and abhor racism in all its forms, both past and present.

It follows that it would be entirely unfair, and completely out of my own character, to deliberately implement policies that perpetuates, directly or indirectly, the injustices of the past.

However, I now have a few questions for him. Who are these people and how have they been elbowed out? He is talking in the plural and so the onus is on him to spell out who these people are. The only person at present who has been mentioned is Givemore Makoni. I would like to know who else has been or will be affected.

Once we know the names of the people then we must interrogate whether they were in fact blocked from playing for their country because of the colour of their skin.


Whilst I do not argue for a second that it took a long time for black Zimbabweans to be drawn into cricket (something we see in South Africa today 20 years after the end of apartheid with pitifully few black players in both their cricket and rugby squads) and that it was difficult for black players to learn the game and be recognised even post independence, we must still ask the question whether the person allegedly affected had the skills to play for Zimbabwe.

As I understand the arguments put forward Givemore Makoni says that he would have played for Zimbabwe but for the fact that he was blocked, and therefore is now being prejudiced.

But is that true or just a cover? Makoni says that in 1988 he went to under 15 trials which accordingly to my calculations means he was born in 1973, that is after Bruce Makovah, born in 1969, and after Ethan Dube, born in 1970. Both of the last two gentlemen played cricket at provincial and national level, something Makoni never did.

Henry Olonga and Pommie Mbangwa were both born in 1976 and both went to Government schools. Whilst they had three years less of racial discrimination to contend with they clearly were not discriminated against when it came to selection for Zimbabwe.


Bruce Makovah, in defending Makoni, said this week that Makoni played cricket "but not at a high level" -- his words not mine.

Why was Mr Makoni discriminated against if they weren't or was he just not good enough? I am not in way disputing that black players had tremendous and unfair obstacles to overcome but can we truthfully say that that was the reason Makoni didn't play provincial or national cricket? In other words was he in fact "blocked" from selection as suggested?

But there is a second question that Robson Sharuko must answer -- even if we accept that Mr Makoni should have played for Zimbabwe but for racial discrimination is he in fact being "elbowed out of their sporting structures because they were victims of racial prejudice"? I would answer that question for him as follows.

Firstly if Mr Makoni is the only example that can be given, he is not being elbowed out of his sporting structure.

He remains as manager of the Rocks and indeed in terms of the amendments to the Directives which the SRC is now working on will be eligible to remain a selector if the Zimbabwe Cricket apply to the SRC.

So even in this one example there is no "elbowing out". And if the gripe is that he is being "elbowed out" of the position of convener that is not because of race or his past but because of international best practice.

If we narrowly focus in on cricket, it is true that every single top Test playing cricket nation bar Zimbabwe and New Zealand employ respected former national players as convener of selectors.

There must be a reason for this and it has nothing to do with race or historical racial discrimination. Related to this can we say with absolute honesty that the system employed in Zimbabwe Cricket is working well? Our performances on the field over the last year certainly do not indicate that.

Secondly Mr Makoni is not the only person in sport in Zimbabwe who will not be able to keep his position as convener -- for example Austin Jeans, the well known sports doctor, was convener of the triathlon national selection panel, and he too will no longer be able to be convener.

Jeans is white so it has nothing to do with race, but everything to do with a consistent national policy which is in the national interest and consistent with international best practice. Triathlon Zimbabwe, like Zimbabwe Cricket, will have to apply to the SRC to have him approved as a selector.


There are two final questions I have for Robson Sharuko. Is it right that a policy which is clearly in the national interest, and designed to improve Zimbabwe's sporting performance, should be blocked by spurious and baseless arguments that somehow they perpetuate racism?

Secondly is it right that such a good national policy, which seeks to implement international best practice, should be attacked solely to protect the interests of one person? I hope he won't deliberately skip or ignore these questions.
Well, some very clear points there...

User avatar
bayhaus
Posts: 1548
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2008 6:24 am
Supports: Mountaineers
Location: Johannesburg
Contact:

Re: Race Storm Hits Zim Cricket

Post by bayhaus »

hhm wrote: Ozias may be after money. I don't think money is what AC-Commentator-Lifordia; Coltart-British kickbacks & Heath-Game Rancher are after. It's more a case of something of strategic importance, which naturally comes at the expense of a specific group of people. What is that called?
I was looking at it from another angle, cos I know for sure this was not for their love of the game. I personally still maintain that race is at the bottom of this and no amount of spinning will exoneroate. Coltart needs to wake up honestly if he keeps defending and fighting Robson he will miss the boat. If he is so concerned about fixing ZC He needs to investigate the race issues at ZC in and out of the team and in the structures. Judging by his responses he seems to be making up his arguement as he goes along, showing that this was not a well thought out process, and no consultation either. Coltart messed up through interference. The West Indies fast tracked this issue that's why it had to be 1st of February. So Makoni does not go and the smuggled Price will find his way back in the team. But I am tired of all these games at ZC and for it to end it has to be blown wide open, all these forumites who say we don't want another saga etc are selfish and only think about their own gratification and fix of watching Zimbabwe play cricket. If you can spare a thought for the players and the people that all this is affecting. I hope Makoni is prepared to really bring it, and force some kind of commission to get to the bottom of this.
POVOAfrika = Arts + Culture + Sustainability
Follow on Twitter
My Blog

User avatar
Ming
Posts: 973
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2011 2:13 pm
Supports: Mountaineers

Re: Race Storm Hits Zim Cricket

Post by Ming »

I hear those of you who talk about the institutionalized racism that existed in Zim cricket for so long. Few people will argue against the fact that deeply entrenched attitudes in the 80's and 90's were probably more than enough to discourage all but the strongest or most talented characters. That being said, concrete proof (as opposed to allegations) of people's progress being systematically and deliberately hindered will be nigh-impossible to find. Which is why the allegation of racism can be used as a cover up for the failings of some who fell by the wayside. How many ambitious 15-year-olds eventually make it into the senior cricket team in any test-playing nation? Very few, and for those who don't, the process is heart-breaking and can lead to bitterness. How expedient and comforting, therefore, to have an excuse when one fails!

Back to Campbel and his 'cronies' - are those of you who accuse them of foul play saying that they operate as some kind of secret society whose every waking hour is spent scheming about ways to suppress the black people of Zimbabwe? Much as I am suspicious of them, I have my doubts regarding this allegation. I mean, if you're a hardcore racist, plotting for world domination, surely cricket in Zim is too small time to be worth bothering about?
Peterhouse U14C 4th change bowler and no. 10 batsman (but only because Aaron didn't have a bat).

hhm
Posts: 1816
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 3:05 pm
Supports: Matabeleland Tuskers
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa

Re: Race Storm Hits Zim Cricket

Post by hhm »

bayhaus wrote:Coltart needs to wake up honestly if he keeps defending and fighting Robson he will miss the boat. If he is so concerned about fixing ZC He needs to investigate the race issues at ZC in and out of the team and in the structures. Judging by his responses he seems to be making up his arguement as he goes along, showing that this was not a well thought out process, and no consultation either. Coltart messed up through interference.
So far I was doubting Coltart's intelligence, right now I am convinced he's as dumb as his colleagues who for over 12 years went through great lengths to stand up to the Rooster & that great man, but have now yielded to something which begs the question - 'what was all the fuss about'!
But is that true or just a cover? Makoni says that in 1988 he went to under 15 trials which accordingly to my calculations means he was born in 1973, that is after Bruce Makovah, born in 1969, and after Ethan Dube, born in 1970. Both of the last two gentlemen played cricket at provincial and national level, something Makoni never did.
When did Bruce Makovah and Ethan Dube play at national level?

How on earth can you compare cricket which has complete professional equipment for just us$200, to Triathlon where you need a bike & gear up to us$2,000. Is this guys mad or what? Do you see hundreds of thousands of school kids in primary and high school taking up the sport, with many of willing and capable parents shelling out us$800 for each one of them? Who is replacing Austin Jeans?

The struggle has various levels. The first step is to take over government and key industries, institutions, and naturally top sports like soccer, cricket and rugby. The rest will follow! What cannot and should not be done is attempt to reverse the status quo where gains have been made. This guy forgets that this isn't simply sports administration, it's people who can best serve as custodians of the revolution. What on earth goes on in that mind!?

The only way this will be accepted, is if a past Black Zimbabwe national player is appointed as Convenor. The mention of Dube who is Black certainly means that's the intention. However his specific mention of the same person mentioned years back then by Streak a Matabele and neighbour, just like Coltart now 9 years on, when there are other players who are fresher in people's minds and have recent contact with Zimbabwe Cricket, proves that the intentions are not as sincere as Coltart desperately attempts to make them out to be.

A Commission is very much necessary bayhaus. This was thought out and implemented by people with direct intentions of altering the balance of power in Zimbabwe Cricket! There are various pieces of evidence which lead us to suspect definite communication between them, to at least displace Makoni. Embarrassing revelations need tp be made public!
1Mawoyo 2Vusi 3Hami 4Taylor(c) 5Craig 6Matsi 7Taibu(wk) 8Elton 9Cremer 10Rainsford 11Mpofu 12Jarvis

ZIMDOGGY
Posts: 6996
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2010 11:40 pm
Supports: MidWest Rhinos

Re: Race Storm Hits Zim Cricket

Post by ZIMDOGGY »

keep seeing this as a white v black thing you'll get nowhere.

i think its absurd as race hasnt come into it at all from my pov
Cricinfo profile of the 'James Bond' of cricket:

FULL NAME: Angus James Mackay
BORN: 13 June 1967, Harare
KNOWN AS: Gus Mackay

'The' Gus Mackay.

Hero.
Sportsman.
Artist.
Player.

**
Q. VUSI SIBANDA, WHERE DO YOU HOP?

A. UNDA DA ENTERTAINMENT CENTRE*

cock
Posts: 216
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 6:16 am
Supports: Mountaineers

Re: Race Storm Hits Zim Cricket

Post by cock »

hhm your racist comments will do Zim Cricket no good. Let the selectors whether they are black, white or coloured selected the best side to represent the country. Every person has their views on who should be selected. In some peoples mind if a black person is left out that is racial but in other peoples minds if a white player doesn't make the side it is racial. Let the players selected, who ever they maybe, get on with it and represent the country as best they can without this continued racial scene which will if allowed to continue will kill Zim Cricket

hhm
Posts: 1816
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 3:05 pm
Supports: Matabeleland Tuskers
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa

Re: Race Storm Hits Zim Cricket

Post by hhm »

Ming wrote:Back to Campbel and his 'cronies' - are those of you who accuse them of foul play saying that they operate as some kind of secret society whose every waking hour is spent scheming about ways to suppress the black people of Zimbabwe? Much as I am suspicious of them, I have my doubts regarding this allegation. I mean, if you're a hardcore racist, plotting for world domination, surely cricket in Zim is too small time to be worth bothering about?
The issue about being sidelined at 15 is neither here nor there. All I can say with absolute certainty is that in sports, there are multiple cases of individuals who were deliberately sidelined for Whites. That amount, considering the make-up of the population and overwhelming number of black players in comparison to whites at any level, was/is(SA) sufficient enough to state conclusively, that the ratio of those who would have reached the highest levels - were it not for those racist policies - should have been much greater!

You may find it a rather remote possibility for them to plot about racism at what appears to you to be a miniscule level. However, almost every white man(based in Africa) at every level within their area of interest, does their small part to hang on to what they have, which in turn feeds the great chain of evil. Naturally that's only possible if you "block" the rightful recipients and owners from benefiting equally/more, and they happen to be Black. Because it's right for you to keep or have, but not for them, then that mentality, and the approach itself is actually racism, and you are essentially a racist.

Not all slaves were forcibly taken. The majority were actually 'bought' from greedy and ignorant rulers. Does that mean White people were justified in continuing to claim ownership of those people(slaves)?

Again, take for instance the handful landowners in Zim/SA, who were/are white, in comparison to the natural residents. The reasoning is we own and we bought - again mostly from ignorant leaders (only then was it resold, passed down etc). The remarkable thing though is that mature, educated and intelligent white folk find it perfectly logical to say "There were never at any point White people in Zim/SA, we migrated here. We may be just 10 % of you, but we own 80% of the land and resources we found here and it's rightfully ours. If you want it you will have to pay us market rates for it, but if you do that the country will be bankrupt. If you attempt to dispossess us, or repossess the resources and leave us with less than what we had, so that the balance reflects the make-up of the population, our brothers and sisters in Europe and America will disassociate you from the worldwide community."

What am I saying? It is nigh on impossible for so few people to own so much - fairly. But the point I'm making is that they find it normal for things to be that way, and in small means do everything in their power to plot against efforts to redress the balance at every level. There are many cases of White business owners in the private sector, who pay Black employees who have superior experience and qualifications, much less than White workers at the same level. You can only criticise, not act against it, because they are not parastatals and can do what they want without regulation. They have absolutely no shame in, every year, submitting to the government, Employment Equity reports which reflect these glaring inequalities without being bothered the least bit!

Likewise, sport is a business. A multi-billion dollar industry. Cricket is no exception and because their jobs/means of livelihood were transferred to Blacks, it's only natural for them to plot and do all they can to keep it that way or create avenues for their children. Which is understandable. What is racist about it is the fact that it must come at the expense of the majority.

Think of the nerve Heath Streak had. Ozias, quite rightly argued(as should soon happen in SA) that in this day the side selected was unacceptable. Even if the side will lose, but mixed with a core group of experienced White players the losses justify the satisfaction of the constituents who happen to be the majority, black, owners and rightful bearers of the country's name under which the game is carried on at international level(afterall, you don't play for yourself but Zim/SA). As true Zimbabweans they were well within their rights to threaten to dig up the pitch if their FAIR demands were not met - (Zimbabweans playing in Zimbabwe, Zimbabweans supporting a Zimbabwe they want ;) ). Yet Streak wanted an entire association punished, and demanded that the man appointed to ensure that they see a Zimbabwe Cricket team accepable to them, was to be fired or else he resigns. Stuff him! And so it was! :D

The Whites refused to play under a young Black man who later proved to be a wonderful servant for Zimbabweans - Tatenda Taibu. They didn't quit because Streak was fired. He resigned! They could've reasoned that we can add our best 5 players(Streak, Grant, Carlisle, Price, Sean Ervine) to Ebrahim/Matsi, Hami, Taibu, Panyangara, Hondo, Chigumbura and be less competitive, but competitive nonetheless. Rodgers, Blignaut, Friend & Wishart can be rotated among us Whites..

The problem is they want everything and to retain hold of it even when common sense says, whatever the cost, it should not continue that way. Of course you do find some like Brown who are not blind - "I think the rebels shot themselves in the foot. They put 10 points on the table and got nine and a half of what they wanted. The only thing ZCU wouldn’t do is get rid of Max Ebrahim or Ozias Bvute. It’s mind-boggling. We sit there as whites in our little world and the rebels sit there and say nothing’s happening to cricket in the country, but when you actually go out to the townships and have a look, the progress that’s being made is amazing."

But then again, there are some fools like Carlisle - "Regardless of whether there are goals or quotas, when you’ve got documents saying a crowd at a cricket match should be 75 per cent black by the year 2005 and there should be seven non-whites in the team, that’s discrimination". Sadly the numbers extend beyond this Stuart fellow - "The crowd grew and by the time Tatenda Taibu came in at 80 for four there must have been more than 3,000 in the ground, making a lot of noise. About 70 per cent were black – so that was one ‘quota’ fulfilled. But some of the white Zimbabweans were supporting England in protest at what they see as the politicisation of their team. The evidence of emerging black talent was there right in front of us as 19-year-old Elton Chigumbura hit a powerful half-century." Clearly they believed cricket in Zimbabwe was a preserve of the Whites and should have remained that way! That to me is racist in itself!

Justice Ebrahim summed it up very well - "There was nothing I liked more in those days than sitting down with a cup of coffee and reading the English papers. But now the English press is not what it was. When it comes to cricket they print lies. In 2000, 20 years after independence, only five of the 29 senior administrators at the ZCU were black. At independence there were as many as 200,000 whites in the country; in 2000, when the farm invasions began, there were 70,000; today, there are as few as 25,000, many of them elderly. I and a minority of other administrators recognised that if left unchecked it would only be a matter of time before cricket died in this country. But when a choice had to be made between a black and a white player, the white player always got the nod." They are relentless and never want to yield for a black man. All the more reason why it's not surprising to hear Makoni shed light on this selection issue where Price and Utseya are concerned. An attempt was made to overrule the Convenor, even illegal means were employed in desperation.

What is harmful is the lengths to which they go to get their way no matter who suffers - "The white players held the board to ransom. In 2000, for instance, when Zimbabwe toured the West Indies the players decided they didn’t want the coach Dave Houghton any longer so they forced him out." The allegation was later backed up by Ali Shah, who was tour manager at the time. "It was the tail wagging the dog. The players always had to have their way. Davie wanted to drop Alistair Campbell and pick Craig Wishart, but the royal family of Andy Flower, Grant Flower, Campbell and [Guy] Whittall wouldn’t stand for that." Wishart and DH learnt the hard way, but for some reason, certain sections in this forum find it hard to believe that mafias exist in Zimbabwean and South African cricket!

Streak's answer to why the black and white players used different buses while on tour in Australia is laughable - "It's cultural thing. The white players would come to breakfast early, the black players would walk in three or four minutes before we were due to leave. The first bus would fill up, then the black guys would come out with their toast in their mouths and get in the other bus. " Once again Ali Shah(who would no doubt reveal the name of this racist idiot if pressed for it) gives the real answer to prove that racial problem existed - 'I got on the white bus and asked one of the players why there were no blacks on board. He replied, “Because they stink”. Even in the dressing room you’d have whites on one side and blacks on the other.’ Logically the author questions whether Heath Streak as captain did enough to unify the team and remove the segregation. While he believes Heath is not a racist, it doesn't help if he sat among those who felt Blacks stink and Whites don't, unless he approved of that view!

We cannot turn a blind eye to the plundering and corruption of the administrators. Up to this point they have contributed significantly to the slow progress of Zim cricket. But they are being greedy and inconsiderate, not grossly hateful & racist!

What is surprising is to hear David Morgan, then England and Wales Cricket Board chairman, being rational about the whole situation 'I believe my decision to instruct the team to stay in Johannesburg overnight was critical. England would have lost the respect of the other cricket nations if they had not tried to reach a compromise.' He used his favourite phrases – ‘closure’ and ‘acceptable non-compliance’ – before concluding that 'it does much more good for international cricket to be here than to stay away’. Even more surprising was for him to see positives about the economic outlook, even if it wasn't completely the case.

On the contrary, what is not surprising is Coltart's efforts to lead the author to think otherwise about the economic situation. No doubt the amount of energy he exhausted in getting the English not to play their WC match in Zimbabwe, as well as doing everything possible in order to convince them not to tour Zimbabwe, proves he has genuine love for Zimbabwe Cricket and definitely has has its interest at heart. :?

Of him the author Tom de Castella says he was contemptuous. I'ts not hard to agree. At the core, bitter racists tend to be that way, and the Senator may have developed into a full blown one right now. That he would plot to wreak havoc at small time Zim Cricket, is not far fetched from where I'm standing Ming. After all, why else would a top level chemical scientist(William Basson), who "unconsciously" :roll: served the apartheid government's intentions to develop biological weapons to be used to kill Backs, be so determined to remain head of Cricket South Africa as acting president? Crucially, why would his White colleagues be so eager to retain him? ;)

Surely Coltart, an experienced lawyer who was defending Gukurahundi victims, and Basson the highly sought after scientist, can better use their expertise in areas other than sports, particularly cricket? Don't you think...
1Mawoyo 2Vusi 3Hami 4Taylor(c) 5Craig 6Matsi 7Taibu(wk) 8Elton 9Cremer 10Rainsford 11Mpofu 12Jarvis

cock
Posts: 216
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 6:16 am
Supports: Mountaineers

Re: Race Storm Hits Zim Cricket

Post by cock »

Again, take for instance the handful landowners in Zim/SA, who were/are white, in comparison to the natural residents. The reasoning is we own and we bought - again mostly from ignorant leaders (only then was it resold, passed down etc). The remarkable thing though is that mature, educated and intelligent white folk find it perfectly logical to say "There were never at any point White people in Zim/SA, we migrated here. We may be just 10 % of you, but we own 80% of the land and resources we found here and it's rightfully ours. If you want it you will have to pay us market rates for it, but if you do that the country will be bankrupt. If you attempt to dispossess us, or repossess the resources and leave us with less than what we had, so that the balance reflects the make-up of the population, our brothers and sisters in Europe and America will disassociate you from the worldwide community."
Once again with your racial hatred for obviously any that is white , you bring up a topic outside cricket again but just to let you know you are correct in saying that the white man migrated to this country, but what you did not mention is that the black people of Zimbabwe today ancestors also migrated here as the original dwellers in southern africa were the bushman or the san people.You disagree with the farmers being compensated for their farms. Most wouldn't mind not being paid for the land but just compensation for all the assets and improvements as not compensating of these amounts to theft

This forum is meant to be a cricket forum and it is meant to be a Zim Cricket forum so stop bringing SA cricket into our forum

PieChucker
Posts: 198
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2011 1:05 pm
Supports: Matabeleland Tuskers

Re: Race Storm Hits Zim Cricket

Post by PieChucker »

"the Rooster & that great man"

Just lost any sense of credibility you might have been building up there hhm.

If you can't see the difference between someone like Dave Coltard and Alistair Campbell then you're blinded by racism. To lump them together into a giant conspiracy because they are white betrays your true feelings.

sigh

Locked