[Match Thread] Zimbabwe v NewZealand (3rd ODI)

[hhm]

Put it to you this way guys, if either of Tino, Jarvis, Vitori. Mushangwe, Ncube etc were my son, and they seriously intend to have a 7-10 year career in cricket, I wouldn't let them play for Zim right now!! Yes, even if Tino got a double-hundred Bayhaus.

FlowerPower gets my point of view. And I understand the argument BRM&co make. The bottomline, besides a lack of skills, they are not mentally tough enough to recover from these beatings!! The fact that you see white guys like Duffin&Ewing, plus the likes of Matsi&Rainsford playing FC in Zim at thier relative ages tells you that they are solely focused on cricket as a career and intent a getting more out of. Those kind of guys are of the right maturity and mindset to battle for Zim. They have the right drive and are in the right space to produce the results. Vitori, Jarvis etc have litttle pressure at all right now.

Sloan questioned why I put forward Ewing as captain. Simple, he's mature and is a leader of winners!! Sometimes I feel pity for BRM when I see the likes of Pro & Elton carry on as they please while Taibu barks countless instructions of his own. It's understandable in the case of Price, but you can see these guys have an attitude that Taylor can't tell them anything, we've been there done that. Even his body language during matches shows that these guys take advantage of him because they can. I had hoped they would respect him but the opposite is equally true he has no authority over them. It's not a surprise to me that some of our ususally economical bowlers have been fetching a lot, while he has also overseen the worst fielding displays we've seen for Zim at international level, not even when we had boys playing then. Taylor doesn't seem to have any influence whatsoever in who is in the XI. Ewing on the other had will have none of these things happening arouund him, I'm quite certain that he would be a lot more harsher in his comments of our players when they do badly.

[aydee]

Duffin has already held the fort - in 2006 when he was captain. He now needs to score a few centuries in a season to be given a place in the side *bobs head back into trench to avoid Hhm missile*

Frankly, Duffin' record over the past few seasons for the Tuskers has been mediocre itself. Look at his cricinfo profile. His last 12 innings for the Tuskers: 27, 0, 6, 79, 12, 11, 21, 7, 2, 34, 62, 49. 310 runs @ 34, with 2 50s and 0 hundreds. His first class career average is 29, from as many as 61 games, with a grand total of 3 100s. Neither has he scored a single list A 100. This first class record compares unfavourably with any competition he may have within the first class game, and very unfavourably to the national team regulars when they manage to turn out for their franchises.

In 27 international innings, he managed 4 50s, and averaged just over 20. This included knocks against Canada, Bermuda, Kenya and Ireland.

He never bowls, and is not a great mover in the field.

He is 29, and therefore highly unlikely to see any dramatic improvement.

On precisely what basis would anyone pick this guy for a Zim A side, let alone the full team!

[foreignfield]

With all due respect the "experience" you mention is in the batting, and aside Duffin and Ewing, hhm has not been asking for an overhaul of the batting (yes maybe overcritical of Mawoyo, to which to his credit he did say he was proved wrong somewhat), now according to your bowling Vitori, Jarvis, is the new component we have injected, to an existing attack of Mpofu (a 25 year old learning his trade), I think as we saw in the Pakistan series the youngsters brutally suffered, now we hope/hoped NZ wouldn't scar them further, I'm sure you will agree sport is a confidence as well as talent affected endevour. This is where I tend to agree with hhm. If we had Rainsford and Panyangara, even Mupariwa, we then would have a group of slightly wiser (not necessarily better) heads to cope ...

let's revert to the old heads and maintain the level we had (albeit low) ...

Well, as you said, let's talk test cricket (and bowling) here: We did not play test cricket for years, so there's really no level to maintain. Our new pace attack blew away (lowly, but overall still better than us) Bangladesh, and restricted Pakistan to a decent score in the first innings at Queens on a flat wicket (if someone could back the poor lads up in the field we'd had a first innings lead). Jarvis' figures look all right to me in that first innings, only Vitori got hammered, and I still think things would have panned out differently if Taylor (was it?) hadn't put Hafeez down in his second over or so. "Brutally suffered" does not sum it up in my opinion. We lost the match because our batsmen panicked on the fourth afternoon.

I get the feeling you base your judgement more or less on what's happened after the Pakistan test, and that was all ODIs and T20ies.

From the start I have argued that Jarvis' and Vitori's workload should be managed cautiously, i.e. that they should be rotated in the limited overs stuff. Now Vitori got injured and Jarvis played a bit too much, especially T20 stuff, and I think it told in the end. I'd rather have rested him more often and kept him fresh for the test. I think Jarvis & Vitori are, at this moment in time, better suited to the longer format, simply because they lack the distinct skills necessary in the shorter form (well disguised slower balls, bowling yorkers at will -- not sure we have anyone else who can do that). Jarvis showed good control throughout, and Vitori was not more loose over those two matches than Mpofu. I have no issue if we'd thrown one of hhm's favourite medium pace trundlers (a rather harsh asessment, I know ) into the firing line that is T20 cricket.

Point taken on earning their places, but I only referred to the batsmen because Waller and Mutizwa produced the goods in FC and A-team cricket. Jarvis and Vitori were picked after their performances against a very strong Aus A. Rainsford was not dropped if I recall correctly but got injured. Not sure what happened to Mupariwa.

[FlowerPower]

Well, as you said, let's talk test cricket (and bowling) here: We did not play test cricket for years, so there's really no level to maintain.

We are number 10 and hoping to move past Bangladesh, I think pre 2004 we were above Bangladesh, and hopefully that's where we want to initially go to in the first two years. So yes low standards but standards none the less. But to use your point, if there are no standards to uphold, letting the older heads hold fort whilst Jarvis and co are properly finished wouldn't harm us at all, if anything their A team apperances would ease them in...personally (can't speak for my partner in debate hhm) I rate these youngsters but we are going about it the wrong way.

Our new pace attack blew away (lowly, but overall still better than us) Bangladesh,

You said it I dint, and I agree with you...

and restricted Pakistan to a decent score in the first innings at Queens on a flat wicket (if someone could back the poor lads up in the field we'd had a first innings lead). Jarvis' figures look all right to me in that first innings, only Vitori got hammered, and I still think things would have panned out differently if Taylor (was it?) hadn't put Hafeez down in his second over or so.
"Brutally suffered" does not sum it up in my opinion. We lost the match because our batsmen panicked on the fourth afternoon.

Vitori: 0/103 off 25ovrs with 3 maidens, 0/17 off 2 ovrs, no maidens is a hammering, I, as a true supporter hate highlighting on my team's failures but truth is he got hammered.

Jarvis: 1/79 off 24ovrs, 4 maidens, 1/17 off 5ovrs no maidens, is marginally better but for a your strike bowler is ordinary...

Don't get me wrong I don't like pointing to non flattering evidence, to players I believe in (yes I do believe these lads have a lot of talent, and hhm may disagree)...but I think we are mishandling them.

I get the feeling you base your judgement more or less on what's happened after the Pakistan test, and that was all ODIs and T20ies.

On hindsight I do believe you are right! Thanks for picking it up, but as shown above the only other test wasn't off and maybe it is harsh to judge players on 2 Test matches, but that's the crux of the matter even their FC is still green and we can't really analyse that, for me they should be learning their trade..

From the start I have argued that Jarvis' and Vitori's workload should be managed cautiously, i.e. that they should be rotated in the limited overs stuff. Now Vitori got injured and Jarvis played a bit too much, especially T20 stuff, and I think it told in the end. I'd rather have rested him more often and kept him fresh for the test.

Would almost totally agree except I would change the workload to career, their career handling and not workload is the issue.

I think Jarvis & Vitori are, at this moment in time, better suited to the longer format, simply because they lack the distinct skills necessary in the shorter form (well disguised slower balls, bowling yorkers at will -- not sure we have anyone else who can do that).

We do have such a bowler...Mpofu actually learned this over time

Jarvis showed good control throughout, and Vitori was not more loose over those two matches than Mpofu. I have no issue if we'd thrown one of hhm's favourite medium pace trundlers (a rather harsh asessment, I know ) into the firing line that is T20 cricket.

Welcome to our world! [EDIT] Didn't quite read that right first time, on the contrary I think its easier to get discipline over 4 overs (T20) then 10 overs (ODI) then graduate to Test. Of course there are rare differences (Matthew Hoggard being a case in point, made for Test exclusively!)

Point taken on earning their places, but I only referred to the batsmen because Waller and Mutizwa produced the goods in FC and A-team cricket. Jarvis and Vitori were picked after their performances against a very strong Aus A. Rainsford was not dropped if I recall correctly but got injured. Not sure what happened to Mupariwa.

I think one needs to consistantly prove themselve over a sustained period, not just ONE strong performance...

[foreignfield]

I guess we could go on forever, FlowerPower (hope I got that right ), I understand and respect your reasoning, but you're not winning me over - and neither am i likely to, so I'll leave it at that.

[FlowerPower]

I guess we could go on forever, FlowerPower (hope I got that right ), I understand and respect your reasoning, but you're not winning me over - and neither am i likely to, so I'll leave it at that.

Yep right you are on all accounts! Glad you at least listened that for me is the triumph, we need not agree but exchange views, incidently I was anti the idea when hhm started it all, but once I got past his direct and harsh (bordering unfair) comments I saw sense in it. It was a pleasure exchanging view!