Netherlands ODI Series - Discussion

[secretzimbo]

Just going through recent Netherlands ODI and T20 caps, and all of the below were either born in the Netherlands or learnt all or most of their cricket from a young age in the country:

Paul Van Meekeren
Viv Kingma
Bas de Leede
Max O'Dowd
Vikram Singh
Aryan Dutt
Teja Nidamunuru
Musa Ahmed
Shariz Ahmad
Boris Gorlee
Philippe Boissevain
Saqib Zulfiqar
Sikandar Zulfiqar
Tobias Vissee
Dan ter Braak
Pieter Seelaar
Julian de Mey
Sebastiaan Braat
Tonny Staal
Hidde Overdijk


I'm not sure how many more you are expecting?

And anyway I don't really mind teams representing the diaspora, especially associates. That's the way of the world and most team sports. I'm sure they are proud to be representing their heritage and they are hardly mercenaries being paid big bucks by the Dutch are they? They probably play for a tiny match fee, so good on them.

[Kriterion_BD]

Just going through recent Netherlands ODI and T20 caps, and all of the below were either born in the Netherlands or learnt all or most of their cricket from a young age in the country:

Paul Van Meekeren
Viv Kingma
Bas de Leede
Max O'Dowd
Vikram Singh
Aryan Dutt
Teja Nidamunuru
Musa Ahmed
Shariz Ahmad
Boris Gorlee
Philippe Boissevain
Saqib Zulfiqar
Sikandar Zulfiqar
Tobias Vissee
Dan ter Braak
Pieter Seelaar
Julian de Mey
Sebastiaan Braat
Tonny Staal
Hidde Overdijk


I'm not sure how many more you are expecting?

And anyway I don't really mind teams representing the diaspora, especially associates. That's the way of the world and most team sports. I'm sure they are proud to be representing their heritage and they are hardly mercenaries being paid big bucks by the Dutch are they? They probably play for a tiny match fee, so good on them.

I'm not doubting this post, but how were able to confirm where these guys developed their games? Was it through looking at the "major teams" part of their cricinfo profiles?

Netherlands has a decent history of cricket, similar to Scotland and Ireland...so it shouldn't surprise people that they have a decent pathway to the game there. They aren't like Germany or Italy with almost zero cricketing culture outside of the Subcontinent immigrants.

[secretzimbo]

Most in the list were born there.
I did a bit more research on the ones not born there. O'Dowd looks like he moved to the Netherlands aged 11 or 12. Same sort of age for Boissevain. So I think they would count as home-grown.
Most of the Asian names, although maybe born in India/Pak, seem to pop up in quite a few old Dutch youth/age group sides with a bit of digging. So again, reasonable to consider them 'products' of the pathway/system.

I've been to VRA at Amstelveen years ago and walked past another club that was over the road. The clubs there seem very similar to English village clubs. Lots of history, quaint settings, nice pavilions, community feel. Definitely a different vibe to most other associates. They seem to have a lot of clubs/grounds actually. More serviceable grounds than Zimbabwe for sure.
Cricket was vastly popular there 100 years ago but much like Argentina and Denmark, they were excluded from the game when only colonies/commonwealth countries were allowed to be part of the Imperial Cricket Council at the time.

Could have been very different if they were given Test status all the way back then!

[jaybro]

Well that’s quite a big list, most guys I don’t know or aren’t regulars in the national team. I was surprised to see O’Dowd has been in Holland since he was 11 or 12.

According to Wikipedia, he actually moved to Holland a lot younger after being born in NZ; his father was a former Kiwi cricketer. He actually returned to NZ at the age of 12 to go to high school. Looks like he’s split his time between the two countries.

Anyways, my point was that they both benefit and suffer from being in the position they are in. As you can see, the majority of their best players are very much imports, and are not always available for selection. This is a benefit because they’re able to field much stronger teams at World Cup events, but they can also be left short when these dudes have better offers.

[secretzimbo]

I don't like the word 'imports'. It suggests that the KNCB are actively going around scouting players and throwing lots of money in their direction. That isn't the case, they get very little from the ICC, even more so after the Super League ends.

It's very different from for example the USA, which has actively imported/recruited players over the past 2-3 years ahead of major league cricket.

[jaybro]

I don't like the word 'imports'. It suggests that the KNCB are actively going around scouting players and throwing lots of money in their direction. That isn't the case, they get very little from the ICC, even more so after the Super League ends.

It's very different from for example the USA, which has actively imported/recruited players over the past 2-3 years ahead of major league cricket.

Call them what ever you like, but ultimately they are benefiting from the eligibility sweet spot they’re in being an associate because they can bring in these guys with Dutch ancestors.

On paper this is a really tight series to call, and the Dutch won the last ODI series 2-0 v Zimbabwe. But Zimbabwe don’t benefit from any imports apart from Raza, but he was a social club cricketer before he came to Zim, not a seasoned pro like the guys Holland are getting.

[jaybro]

Paul Van Meekeren
Viv Kingma
Bas de Leede
Max O'Dowd
Vikram Singh
Aryan Dutt
Teja Nidamunuru
Musa Ahmed
Shariz Ahmad
Boris Gorlee
Philippe Boissevain
Saqib Zulfiqar
Sikandar Zulfiqar
Tobias Vissee
Dan ter Braak
Pieter Seelaar
Julian de Mey
Sebastiaan Braat
Tonny Staal
Hidde Overdijk

If this was the squad Zimbabwe had to face for this series, would we be expecting a tough close series?

I’d be very confident of a comprehensive Zimbabwean series win.

[secretzimbo]

I don't like the word 'imports'. It suggests that the KNCB are actively going around scouting players and throwing lots of money in their direction. That isn't the case, they get very little from the ICC, even more so after the Super League ends.

It's very different from for example the USA, which has actively imported/recruited players over the past 2-3 years ahead of major league cricket.

Call them what ever you like, but ultimately they are benefiting from the eligibility sweet spot they’re in being an associate because they can bring in these guys with Dutch ancestors.

On paper this is a really tight series to call, and the Dutch won the last ODI series 2-0 v Zimbabwe. But Zimbabwe don’t benefit from any imports apart from Raza, but he was a social club cricketer before he came to Zim, not a seasoned pro like the guys Holland are getting.

What does being an associate have to do with it?

Also calling Raza an 'import' eeeish. His parents have lived here for live 20+ years and he's as patriotic a Zimbo as anyone. You make it sound like he moved to Zimbabwe just to play cricket, which is literally the opposite.

[jaybro]

What does being an associate have to do with it?

Also calling Raza an 'import' eeeish. His parents have lived here for live 20+ years and he's as patriotic a Zimbo as anyone. You make it sound like he moved to Zimbabwe just to play cricket, which is literally the opposite.

Associates have looser eligibility rules ie let's say Tom Cooper for instance, he was able to play for Holland but also be available for Australian selection if the chance came up. Even guys like Glover, he could easily switch back to South Africa without having to sit out a cooling off period that Ballance theoretically did to switch from Eng to Zim.

I don't make things sound like anything, you're the one who's getting caught up with simple words and going off on a tangent. Raza is very much a patriotic Zimbo, but he wasn't born here and only came to Zimbabwe after he'd studied in Scotland right? He didn't learn his craft of cricket in Zimbabwe, but he most certainly didn't come from another proper system (as I said he was a social club cricketer). Raza is very much a self made cricketer, which is a credit to him.

Again though, my point is about comparing the Dutch system producing national team players v Zimbabwe's, not questioning their patriotism, or their commitment to the team. Read it for what it is, not for what you've construed in your mind.

[secretzimbo]

We get about 20x the ICC funding the Netherlands gets and have done for a few decades, so really I'm not sure why you are comparing the numbers of players Zimbabwe produce vs Netherlands. If anything we are the ones underwhelming.

They produce plenty of home grown players, plenty of whom play for the national side. That is topped up by some foreign born players with Dutch heritage, who want to play for the Netherlands and who seem pretty proud to represent that heritage and who, let's be clear, get paid very very little to play for the Netherlands and weren't actively 'imported' with wads of cash.



Anyway, on your other point, Raza's parents were here around the turn of the century, before he went to Scotland. Can't remember if he stayed in Pakistan for a while or came here but either way he has links to Zim going back over 20 years and he shouldn't have even been mentioned in this conversation imo.