[MATCH THREAD] 2nd Test Afghanistan v Zimbabwe @Abu Dhabi

[zimbos_05]

I feel like a far more important question than the Don or the Burl's positions in the side is being forgotten. And that is do you drop Wesley from the Test squad?

My answer would be a resounding "no!"

I've almost always favored younger players over older or experienced ones. The most salient point for me is whether or not Madhevere is considered a talent and/or if he is the next big Zimbabwe player for the next generation. If he is, then he must play, simple as that.

Almost everyone earlier in the match thread wants him dropped, but I ask, what would dropping him achieve exactly? Their aren't many A tours, the Logan Cup is sporadic at its best, and even then of questionable quality. He's not going to magically develop away from the Test squad. If he's dropped, what happens in 3 years when Taylor, Williams, Ervine, and Raza are all gone and now Wesley is severely undercooked?

My argument is, a truly talented/skilled player will eventually come good. His best chance is if he's right alongside the senior batsmen and learning from them.

I know what everyone means about Wes being a talent, but what you are suggesting is that it does not matter how he is performing, just keep picking him because it should come off, he has talent.

That is not how this works. He has had 4 FC games, and now has scored 3 ducks in all of his test innings. By continually throwing him in to the deep end in a format in which he does not really have much experience is not going to help him at all. If anything, it can hamper his development. He is more suited to white ball. So keep playing him there with a view to red ball development in the background.

Take him on red ball tours and get him amongst the squad practicing and learning and then he will be ready. There is nothing to be gained in rushing a player who is not ready and all that will happen is that his stats and development will get hampered,

It's not up to Wes to develop himself in games, it's up to ZC and the coaches to develop the players. Quality is achieved on the practice field. Throwing the players in the deep end will not allow them to reach their potential nor bring out the best in them.

[jaybro]

Wes won’t be playing the 1st Test v Pakistan I’m 99% sure of that

[CrimsonAvenger]

Whether he plays the next test or not, getting him on a phone call with Marvan would help.

[Kriterion_BD]

It's not up to Wes to develop himself in games, it's up to ZC and the coaches to develop the players. Quality is achieved on the practice field. Throwing the players in the deep end will not allow them to reach their potential nor bring out the best in them.

Let me give you a scenario, and you can give me your ideas on how you see it panning out. Its January 2025 and Taylor, Williams, Ervine, and Raza have all retired in the space of 6 months. Wes is now 24 years old, and has played just the 2 Tests, being dropped after his hatrick of ducks. He's played a total of 30 Logan Cup games since then, a handful of first class games with Zimbabwe A, and a good number of ODIs and T20Is, but very little red ball experience. Ditto for Shumba, Myers, and others. The most experienced batsman remaining is Tari Musakanda who is incidentally named Test captain with 15 Tests under his belt. Burl got dropped, Chakabva and Prince have retired, and Mutumbami is in the final leg of his career. Kasuza is 31 and in the prime of his career.

Are you comfortable with such a scenario, because that seems to be what you're advocating for.

[zimfan1]

It's not up to Wes to develop himself in games, it's up to ZC and the coaches to develop the players. Quality is achieved on the practice field. Throwing the players in the deep end will not allow them to reach their potential nor bring out the best in them.

Let me give you a scenario, and you can give me your ideas on how you see it panning out. Its January 2025 and Taylor, Williams, Ervine, and Raza have all retired in the space of 6 months. Wes is now 24 years old, and has played just the 2 Tests, being dropped after his hatrick of ducks. He's played a total of 30 Logan Cup games since then, a handful of first class games with Zimbabwe A, and a good number of ODIs and T20Is, but very little red ball experience. Ditto for Shumba, Myers, and others. The most experienced batsman remaining is Tari Musakanda who is incidentally named Test captain with 15 Tests under his belt. Burl got dropped, Chakabva and Prince have retired, and Mutumbami is in the final leg of his career. Kasuza is 31 and in the prime of his career.

Are you comfortable with such a scenario, because that seems to be what you're advocating for.

Very likely to happen.

[Kriterion_BD]

Very likely to happen.

Thats why I'm suggesting the only viable option is to play young talented guys without worrying about the experience ruining them. Real talents that work hard will ALWAYS eventually come good. Ask Sean Williams. 5 Years ago I was ready to put Williams in the "Hamilton category" ie scores only against minnows or when the game is a mere formality. But he's really turned it around since then.

We can't change the Big 4's (Taylor, Williams, Ervine, Raza) ages or lengthen their careers slash delay retirement, nor can we turn ZC into a proactive organization that excels in developing cricket talent. Thus the only alternative is the baptism by fire.

Bangladesh are in a similar position and I've had a lot of debates with BD fans who want or think Najmul Hossain Shanto should be dropped from the Test (batting average of 22) and/or ODI squad (average of 12). Everyone agrees he has talent, but a lot of people want him cut from the team. But what good would that achieve? He's already played 46 first class matches and averages 40+ so its not like he has a lot of room to improve. Like ZIM, BD also rarely play A team games, and when they do, national teamers are either on tour or in camp for one. So the only way a Shanto is going to develop his game is by being thrown in at the deep end. If he's worthy, he'll swim out of it.

[jaybro]

Is it about Wes being dropped, or is it a case of there not being a spot for him in the middle order?? Keeping in mind Ervine & BT will come back into the side unless One of those guys moves up and opens or they play Wes as the No.7 and don't play a spinner I don't see where he gets in for the next series?

Ideally possibly Ervine retires from the ODI side and maybe Raza from the Test team in a couple of years so the brunt of the 'big 4' retiring isn't quite as bad, but it might not end up that way. I'm not really one to plan for the future with Test Cricket, the most important Test is always the next Test.

Prince & Regis are a little bit younger than the Big 4 so they might still be around, Kasuza will be more experienced as well and most likely Tari, Burl & Moor will have played more by then as well. The future after the Big 4 retire isn't as bleak as it looked a few years back, it's still a possibility that once these guys retire and the big contract money becomes available ZC could go after the likes of Welch, Muyeye, Roache and even the Schadendoorf brothers to further boost the batting stocks.

[zimbos_05]

Let me give you a scenario, and you can give me your ideas on how you see it panning out. Its January 2025 and Taylor, Williams, Ervine, and Raza have all retired in the space of 6 months. Wes is now 24 years old, and has played just the 2 Tests, being dropped after his hatrick of ducks. He's played a total of 30 Logan Cup games since then, a handful of first class games with Zimbabwe A, and a good number of ODIs and T20Is, but very little red ball experience. Ditto for Shumba, Myers, and others. The most experienced batsman remaining is Tari Musakanda who is incidentally named Test captain with 15 Tests under his belt. Burl got dropped, Chakabva and Prince have retired, and Mutumbami is in the final leg of his career. Kasuza is 31 and in the prime of his career.

Are you comfortable with such a scenario, because that seems to be what you're advocating for.

Talk about a wild piece of creative writing. I never once ever suggested dropping Wes completely and be done with it.

Player development is essential, but we are the only country in world cricket that will throw a player in to an International game and tell them to figure it out and just keep doing it even if things don't work. It's clear Wes has taken a mental knock, so why keep punishing the guy,

My suggestion is keep him in the set up, but he is a better while ball player than a red ball player (but he is still also just learning the white ball game), so don't add unnecessary pressure. We still have BT and Craig for at least 2 more years so let them take his spot and keep Wes around them to develop and get him playing more 4 day games. You develop players in the training ground and in domestic cricket, not international cricket.

He can learn in this environment better about how to be a red ball batter and develop his game and then you can add him in to the squad after a year of working on his game. He is young there is no need to rush him to be on the level of BT or Craig right now. Sean carried us for that whole test series and it is very clear our young guys are just not up to it nor developing the way they should.

So you have two options. Keep throwing them to the wolves, Zim keep losing and we keep getting frustrated. Or you nurture and develop the talent properly and the players can then make that step up when ready and actually show their quality.

[Kriterion_BD]

Talk about a wild piece of creative writing. I never once ever suggested dropping Wes completely and be done with it.

Player development is essential, but we are the only country in world cricket that will throw a player in to an International game and tell them to figure it out and just keep doing it even if things don't work. It's clear Wes has taken a mental knock, so why keep punishing the guy,

My suggestion is keep him in the set up, but he is a better while ball player than a red ball player (but he is still also just learning the white ball game), so don't add unnecessary pressure. We still have BT and Craig for at least 2 more years so let them take his spot and keep Wes around them to develop and get him playing more 4 day games. You develop players in the training ground and in domestic cricket, not international cricket.

He can learn in this environment better about how to be a red ball batter and develop his game and then you can add him in to the squad after a year of working on his game. He is young there is no need to rush him to be on the level of BT or Craig right now. Sean carried us for that whole test series and it is very clear our young guys are just not up to it nor developing the way they should.

So you have two options. Keep throwing them to the wolves, Zim keep losing and we keep getting frustrated. Or you nurture and develop the talent properly and the players can then make that step up when ready and actually show their quality.

I'll give the example of Babar Azam as a guy who was persisted with and turned into a terrific Test batter. He was averaging around 25 in his first 10-12 matches, and a lot of fans wanted him dropped. But the team stuck with him, and now he's the face of their team. Sometimes belief, and giving a player a long run also work.

The next Test is still a few weeks away. Plenty of time to think about not playing at the ball outside off. Its not really a technique issue so much as a shot selection issue.

[Kriterion_BD]

Sri Lanka's Kusal Mendis is another example although looks like he's currently out of favor, but not after SLC backed the fuck out of him for 4-5 years.

It looks like Bangladesh are doing the same thing with Najmul as he's still only 22 years old. Time will tell if that investment pays dividends.