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A colleague let slip the following elsewhere - "Cremer could make the test side solely on his batting...let alone the fact he is our best spinner."

That made my blood boil!

Who really rates Cremer that highly? On Cricinfo a broader audience made up largely by neutrals - people who understand the game - has brutally criticised his bowling over the years (my comments are actually very kind compared to them). Yet, there still seems to be a disturbing group of people who laud him highly. This forum is awash with such bemusing evidence.

What kind of spinner worth his salt fails in the West Indies for crying out loud? (not even the other poor leggie Murphy was that bad.
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine ... pe=bowling

What exactly is he good at it seeing as he's absolutely horrible in Tests? ODIs?

In ODIs he's forever protected by captains (or he's a reluctant bowler who hides at the first sign of danger). Hardly ever bowls his full quota! Of the 25 times that he's bowled a full 10 overs, 9 were against Kenya&Ireland! 21 of the 38 wickets he got bowling full quotas belong to just those two mighty nations.
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine ... ew=innings

A hefty 33 of his 59 career wickets have come against Canada, Ireland and Kenya alone.
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine ... ew=innings

He has just 14 career maidens out of almost 411 career overs! Pathetic!

He's played against Bangladesh 9 times and got just 8 wickets against them. 7 of those matches where in Bangladesh, the other two being in Bulawayo, so he can't even use Harare Sports Club as an excuse. Useless! To put things into perspective BrianVitori got 10 wickets in his first two ODI matches against Bangladesh. Cremer is still to even get that tally after 9 attempts stretching 65 overs!
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine ... ew=innings

Why are people so blind to Cremer's mediocrity assuming of course that shocking "oversight" is honest? Because he can bowl a googly...the best thing since sliced bread?

Graeme Cremer is a vastly overrated legspinner. I refuse to believe Zimbabwe could not have developed Mushangwe, Mutombodzi, Mugava, Wellington, Kamungozi etc into much better spinners. Zimbabwe can should be doing better than Cremer. Much much better!

Yes, I'm waiting for someone to come in and say Hami is an Associates bully or father christmas again, so that person can explain to me what exactly Cremer is. In my book he's rubbish and belongs in domestic cricket where young spinners Mushangwe, Mugava&Mutombodzi routinely outbowled him in every format, and soon the likes of Wellington&Mufudza will do the same.

To cap it all off he's part of the centrally contracted players ahead of all those spinners who are better than him and possess bags more potential!

What are all those youngsters supposed to think?

I find it thoroughly revolting that such a pathetic bowler was selected straight from his couch where he had been hibernating for two years, and into the squad, then automatically part of the starting XI.

Just as I lost my respect in Heath Streak for picking the chucker Querl putting an eternal shameful stain on the Tuskers' dominant years recently; I lost my respect entirely of Dave Whatmore when he picked a bowler with such a horrible record against proper opposition.

All things aside, that you can make that kind of comment eugene is insulting. I'm still shocked even Brendan Taylor (the former captain not the ZCF gatekeeper) has once said he's the best spinner in Zimbabwe too.

NB: He's done extremely well in T20s. But 1 maiden in 40 career overs says a lot. Nonetheless he should really be let loose to return to whatever he was busy with and only used in T20s like woeful Coventry...only more successful.

Cremer/Williams/Ervine are the ones in the side who need no favours from the selectors, they have proven themselves domestically and have done well on the international scene to varying degrees much more than their counterparts, The latter two have some of the best averages of the current Zim batting. Cremer is a legspinner which is a difficult art to master he seems to get better as series go on as needs time but he has done well and deserves his place. Mushangwe is another legspinner I like and he got carted when they toured Bangladesh but I could tell with him he needed more time to assert himself

The argument that he has taken all his wickets against easy opposition can be shared around the entire side as even 'champions' like Utseya have played against the likes of Kenya ......

At least he has taken more wickets then matches played un like Utseya, plus his average and strike rate is better than Utseya's. He definitely hasn't reached the heights we'd hoped for but spinners tend to get better with age ......

I saw the topic header and just sighed. Everybody is entitled to their opinions, Hhm, so I'm not going to argue and say you're wrong but I won't say you're right neither. Cremer, in my opinion, isn't the bowler he was 4-5 years ago at the moment. He's been away from the game due to the politics and lack of pay which he depended on to feed his family. None the less he's returned, and I can honestly say that there has been a monumental improvement since his tour to Pakistan, where he seemed to have a different action and his shoulder wasn't dropping as much. He wasn't turning the ball and he was still bowling too slow.

Since that tour I think it is fair to say that he's gone back to the drawing board and moved back to what worked best for him in his peak years in the side (2008-2011) by bowling a little flatter and sticking to his original action. In fact, his action looks more like when he bowled at Kallis in his debut test series in 2005. My point is that he's going to get better and better as he plays more cricket, not to mention he can bat more than capably at number 8 or 9.

Hhm fella, lets remember that leg spin is the hardest (arguably) art to master when it comes to bowling. He's the best leg spinner we have in the country. On form, I'll admit that he isn't our best spinner at the moment as there are some really exciting young spinners coming through like Wellington Mazakasza, yet Cremer will always be a threat due to his ability to take wickets, leg spinners always do as they are so rare a commodity.

I'm really nor arguing against your point because you bring up some more than valid ideas, but Graeme Cremer is by far our most attacking spin option, and on that basis (skin colour aside, and I know you didn't bring that up but some will say he's favoured because he's white) he should be in and around our squads mate.

And yet I find it alarmingly audacious that you sit there and type that the inclusion of Cremer is a disgrace, yet Utseya gets in and you say nothing. Utseya is as useful as a pair of sunglasses on a fella with one ear, yet you fail to mention this mate. As I say we all have our favourites, but until players like Utseya and even Mpofu are weeded out and youngsters like Wazakdza and Mumba are excluded, there is seriously no room to call for a bowler like Cremer to be excluded.

I didn't even realise Cremer was white!

I do appreciate that vulva-ramada keeps returning to this forum, despite his distaste for all of us.

Cremer is the best black spinner we have IMO.
Hhm, I wonder if your hatred of dirty oj stems less from his ability , rather than your frustration of him being a forum favourite ?
Otherwise surely you would have joined the anti proper brigade!


As for the topic, you are probably right in saying ZCF collectively overrated him a bit, they tend to get excited about any bowler who puts in a good performance.

However, he has one thing going for him, he can get that tricky wicket that the others can't get.

The wicket that needs to be taken when the quality batter has mastered our 125km/hr potato guns and plodding finger spinners.

He's a partnership breaker. And he can bat

Cremer has 300 FC wickets. He can hardly be useless and overrated in a Zimbabwean context, let me think of Zim spinners with more.... Price, Strang.... then no one.

Is he likely to run through test lineups? No. Is he better than other options? Yes. Can he bat at 8 better than any other bowling options? Yes.

Should he be in the side in spite of Hhm huffing and puffing? Yes.

Maybe if he go gets a heavy sprain tan hhm will like him more

Having your "best" spinner constantly out bowled by Raza or Williams is not good for business. Cremer really needs to step up and take the lead like Price used to do. His batting adds something to the team but his spin is more important. He needs to be bowling his full quota at a good return more often. And it always seems like the captain holds him back and "protects" him to some extant. But he should the the striker like Narine or Ajmal.