Where to from here?

Participate in discussion with your fellow Zimbabwe cricket fans!
jontym87
Posts: 256
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 7:32 am
Supports: Mashonaland Eagles
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Where to from here?

Post by jontym87 »

jaybro wrote:
Wed Jul 05, 2023 9:43 am
jontym87 wrote:
Wed Jul 05, 2023 9:31 am
Ya'll dont want to address the elephant in the room. I know i am going to have a lot of stick for saying this, but those who know me i always speak my mind.

After all said and done, the 7 wins on the trot blinded you. So many things you guys overlooked. Those who follow me on twitter know that i have raised these issues time and again (whether zim won or lost).

Zimbabwe didnt have a captain. Ervine lacks tactical awareness and doesn't really read the game well and not streetwise (can share the blame with the analyst). His questionable decision making was laid bare in the Scotland game. I can point out a few instances:

1. Williams was bowling well and was taken off after 7 overs. Clearly Scotland were struggling with spin at that point in the match. The decision to take him off and bring him back 3/4 overs later released all the pressure.

2. We all know Chatara isn't or hasn't been our best fielder why would you keep on placing him in key fielding positions?

3. He had the specialist spinner in Wellington who only bowled 5 overs for 18 runs. After Raza completed his spell why did you not bring him? Like i said earlier they were struggling with spin. Some of you say you cant bowl a spinner at the death thats backward thinking. We leaked 55runs in the last 5 overs and those runs hurt us. We all know our seamers have always been poor at the death in the warm up against Oman they went for 13 and over at the death.

4. Wellington kept being picked as specialist spinner but was a passenger in the side as he never got to bowl much. Why waste a space and not pick a specialist batter and during the game if we need spin he could turn to Wessley/Raza/Burl/Williams thats at least 25 overs out of those 4 plus your 3 seamers.

Anyways to answer you question "Where to from here?" My answer is 23 August takanovhota :D :D :D :D
There’s literally no one on this forum who thinks Ervine is a good tactical captain, so you can take your elephant to another room mate.
SPEAK FOR YOURSELF :D :D :D Anyways please help me take the elephant to the next room its too heavy! I need help
Professional troll feeder since 2011 :P

User avatar
zimbos_05
Posts: 3158
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2012 6:00 am

Re: Where to from here?

Post by zimbos_05 »

jaybro wrote:
Wed Jul 05, 2023 9:10 am
Don’t play the victim, that’s not what you said

“Chatara cost us dearly”

They were your exact words
What did I not say? If you are going to ignore my other posts in the other threads, then of course it sounds like I'm picking on Chats.

I'm not playing the victim. My words were, "Do away with the passengers". Once again, i used a plural. As in more than one. I stand by Chatara cost us dearly because like I've said, in a low scoring game, he was expensive. His drop and his bowling was a 25-30 runs extra. The margin by which we lost. He is not the only one to blame, but he takes a big share of it.
TapsC2 wrote:
Wed Jul 05, 2023 9:13 am

Richard Ngarava picked up 14 wickets at an average of 19.28 and economy of 4.73

Tendai Chatara picked up 9 wickets at an average of 31.22 and economy of 7.66

Blessing Muzarabani picked up 6 wickets at an average of 46.66 and economy of 5.28

Now based on this knowing that Chatara is our third best bowler and Blessing is our front line bowler who had the worst tournament out of our fast bowlers? Larry has his problems but picking on him is unfair.
TapsC2 wrote:
Wed Jul 05, 2023 9:16 am
Those stats showing me that Larry was leaking runs but picking up wickets whilst our best bowler was largely toothless throughout the tournament. Its a team sport. So picking on 1 individual isn't fair. They failed as a collective. Let's move on
Why is it unfair? He was our most costly bowler. How is it unfair to criticise the person who conceded the most runs. I don't agree that Blessing had the worst tournament. Blessing didn't take as many wickets true, but he was economical. Bowling is not only about taking the wickets. I'll never forget Punter talking about how bowlers can be viewed as a team. You can have one taking all the wickets, but even if the other bowler isn't taking wickets yet is stifling the runs, they are doing their job. They are creating the pressure that leads to wickets. Blessing bowled almost 13 more overs than Chatara and got hit for less. You don't always have to take wickets if you are stifling the batsmen and bogging them down.\

Agains, I have not picked on one person. I have already said, multiple times, that our batters were shit yesterday. I criticised Wes the whole tournament. Even called for him to be dropped before it. Been calling for him to be dropped for some time. This is the first time I've been more vocal about Chatara than I have been in the past.

Googly
Posts: 16763
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2013 5:48 pm

Re: Where to from here?

Post by Googly »

I don't think pace was the major issue actually. Those two deliveries that got Sean and Craig had late nasty swing and were on the money. Most batters would have had problems keeping those out. Sean's delivery was an absolute jaffer.
People are throwing their arms up and saying we can't face pace, but bowlers bowl jaffers, it's cricket.

Richie bowled well and got it going away from the righties and then the one that came back in, but the others didn't get much movement at all. We have two giant bowlers that can threaten most batters and yet our first ten overs in every game were largely unproductive with not a lot of swing on offer. A bit of that was because it's cricket and we could have gotten luckier but none of our seamers are quite accurate enough, there's often one, if not two average deliveries per over. If you're bowling less than 130 you need to be seriously on the money at international level. One boundary an over and you're going at 6 or 7. That's expensive.
I do think Blessing bowled a little too full, the idea being that length where you're not sure whether to go forward or back, but he's got the height and bounce to bowl top of the box directly at the batsman and make life really uncomfortable.
Also when he ran in and bowled slightly quicker he was different gravy.
Also there was a lot of wicket to wicket when 4th was sometimes a better option. I also think they could have used the short ball a bit more. Small margins and easy to say after the fact.

There may well be other new options as well as Myers next year if they're smart -
Bennet, Cartwright (?), Byrom, Welchx2, Schardendorf
There's not a lot in it at this level ability wise, it's who finds a way of making runs more consistently than the others. The coach clearly plays a part, but at this level the batsman has to find a way that works all by himself. You can't make one, he has to invent himself with your help.

We can't put all our eggs in one basket as we've done with Wes and to a lesser degree Milton. We need a handful of guys with what may be a higher ceiling. When your betting on the only two good young guys in the system to come good quickly what are the odds? I mean what happens if Madhevere gets a career ending injury and they don't have a single back-up?
That's where they're at now, it's just plain ridiculous.
Also good batters don't get a decent score 2 out of 3 innings on average. That's the real good ones as well.
In the highly unlikely event the Big 3 walked now we are finished as a cricketing nation. Its that serious. If Richie and Blessing walked we are equally fucked. I'm sure they know this, but looking at cheap miracle solutions of hoping someone we've seen multiple times suddenly coming good are slim. Picking guys not doing so well overseas is also slim, but all day its a better and the only option. The trick is to get them here for $200 a month.

An interesting one would be to know what our retired players are getting for this T10 vs what the current players are being paid. It will tell you directly whether they're serious about managing our cricket or lining their pockets. :lol:
We need serious people for the job at hand.


I get that we need a batting all-rounder that is a seamer. Dion would tick that box, but he needs to play full time cricket under good supervision to come close to achieving that, but he has no more ability than the guys I've mentioned. He's one guy. We need about 8 of them and pray 2 can step up. That's a great return.

TapsC2
Posts: 2883
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:40 pm

Re: Where to from here?

Post by TapsC2 »

zimbos_05 wrote:
Wed Jul 05, 2023 9:53 am
jaybro wrote:
Wed Jul 05, 2023 9:10 am
Don’t play the victim, that’s not what you said

“Chatara cost us dearly”

They were your exact words
What did I not say? If you are going to ignore my other posts in the other threads, then of course it sounds like I'm picking on Chats.

I'm not playing the victim. My words were, "Do away with the passengers". Once again, i used a plural. As in more than one. I stand by Chatara cost us dearly because like I've said, in a low scoring game, he was expensive. His drop and his bowling was a 25-30 runs extra. The margin by which we lost. He is not the only one to blame, but he takes a big share of it.
TapsC2 wrote:
Wed Jul 05, 2023 9:13 am

Richard Ngarava picked up 14 wickets at an average of 19.28 and economy of 4.73

Tendai Chatara picked up 9 wickets at an average of 31.22 and economy of 7.66

Blessing Muzarabani picked up 6 wickets at an average of 46.66 and economy of 5.28

Now based on this knowing that Chatara is our third best bowler and Blessing is our front line bowler who had the worst tournament out of our fast bowlers? Larry has his problems but picking on him is unfair.
TapsC2 wrote:
Wed Jul 05, 2023 9:16 am
Those stats showing me that Larry was leaking runs but picking up wickets whilst our best bowler was largely toothless throughout the tournament. Its a team sport. So picking on 1 individual isn't fair. They failed as a collective. Let's move on
Why is it unfair? He was our most costly bowler. How is it unfair to criticise the person who conceded the most runs. I don't agree that Blessing had the worst tournament. Blessing didn't take as many wickets true, but he was economical. Bowling is not only about taking the wickets. I'll never forget Punter talking about how bowlers can be viewed as a team. You can have one taking all the wickets, but even if the other bowler isn't taking wickets yet is stifling the runs, they are doing their job. They are creating the pressure that leads to wickets. Blessing bowled almost 13 more overs than Chatara and got hit for less. You don't always have to take wickets if you are stifling the batsmen and bogging them down.\

Agains, I have not picked on one person. I have already said, multiple times, that our batters were shit yesterday. I criticised Wes the whole tournament. Even called for him to be dropped before it. Been calling for him to be dropped for some time. This is the first time I've been more vocal about Chatara than I have been in the past.
For me I would personally take Larry's 2 for 46 off 7 overs yesterday compared to Blessing's 0/49 off 9. That is what they produced yesterday. You can't say Larry cost us yesterday. He didn't. He even bowled the guy he dropped. It was the batsmen who failed yesterday.

We only lost 2 games. The Sri Lanka game Larry didn't play and the Scotland game he wasn't bad. It's completely unfair to say he cost us dearly. How exactly?

jontym87
Posts: 256
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 7:32 am
Supports: Mashonaland Eagles
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Where to from here?

Post by jontym87 »

OK from here Zimbabwe will be playing the nations below to qualify for World Cup. Thats how far we have fallen. You may say we are stronger than any of those but sad reality is we at their level thats why we playing them

Nigeria,
Kenya,
Rwanda,
Tanzania,
Uganda,
Namibia
Professional troll feeder since 2011 :P

User avatar
mnelson68
Posts: 900
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 10:39 am

Re: Where to from here?

Post by mnelson68 »

TapsC2 wrote:
Wed Jul 05, 2023 10:56 am
zimbos_05 wrote:
Wed Jul 05, 2023 9:53 am
jaybro wrote:
Wed Jul 05, 2023 9:10 am
Don’t play the victim, that’s not what you said

“Chatara cost us dearly”

They were your exact words
What did I not say? If you are going to ignore my other posts in the other threads, then of course it sounds like I'm picking on Chats.

I'm not playing the victim. My words were, "Do away with the passengers". Once again, i used a plural. As in more than one. I stand by Chatara cost us dearly because like I've said, in a low scoring game, he was expensive. His drop and his bowling was a 25-30 runs extra. The margin by which we lost. He is not the only one to blame, but he takes a big share of it.
TapsC2 wrote:
Wed Jul 05, 2023 9:13 am

Richard Ngarava picked up 14 wickets at an average of 19.28 and economy of 4.73

Tendai Chatara picked up 9 wickets at an average of 31.22 and economy of 7.66

Blessing Muzarabani picked up 6 wickets at an average of 46.66 and economy of 5.28

Now based on this knowing that Chatara is our third best bowler and Blessing is our front line bowler who had the worst tournament out of our fast bowlers? Larry has his problems but picking on him is unfair.



Why is it unfair? He was our most costly bowler. How is it unfair to criticise the person who conceded the most runs. I don't agree that Blessing had the worst tournament. Blessing didn't take as many wickets true, but he was economical. Bowling is not only about taking the wickets. I'll never forget Punter talking about how bowlers can be viewed as a team. You can have one taking all the wickets, but even if the other bowler isn't taking wickets yet is stifling the runs, they are doing their job. They are creating the pressure that leads to wickets. Blessing bowled almost 13 more overs than Chatara and got hit for less. You don't always have to take wickets if you are stifling the batsmen and bogging them down.\

Agains, I have not picked on one person. I have already said, multiple times, that our batters were shit yesterday. I criticised Wes the whole tournament. Even called for him to be dropped before it. Been calling for him to be dropped for some time. This is the first time I've been more vocal about Chatara than I have been in the past.
For me I would personally take Larry's 2 for 46 off 7 overs yesterday compared to Blessing's 0/49 off 9. That is what they produced yesterday. You can't say Larry cost us yesterday. He didn't. He even bowled the guy he dropped. It was the batsmen who failed yesterday.

We only lost 2 games. The Sri Lanka game Larry didn't play and the Scotland game he wasn't bad. It's completely unfair to say he cost us dearly. How exactly?
I'm sorry but Chatara was a complete failure in all aspects of the game. Far too expensive with the ball , struggled badly in the field and cannot bat. You cannot afford to carry players at international level. Surely.there are better options moving forward.

sam_ahm
Posts: 4319
Joined: Mon May 07, 2018 4:23 pm

Re: Where to from here?

Post by sam_ahm »

jontym87 wrote:
Wed Jul 05, 2023 12:06 pm
OK from here Zimbabwe will be playing the nations below to qualify for World Cup. Thats how far we have fallen. You may say we are stronger than any of those but sad reality is we at their level thats why we playing them

Nigeria,
Kenya,
Rwanda,
Tanzania,
Uganda,
Namibia
Scotland and Ireland will be playing the likes of Austria, Germany, Spain and the likes. We all know it is because of Regional qualification system. Why are you making misleading statements?

Kriterion_BD
Posts: 7461
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2009 8:41 am

Re: Where to from here?

Post by Kriterion_BD »

jaybro wrote:
Wed Jul 05, 2023 5:56 am


Wrong, batting form is a players run of either good or bad scores which mostly indicates if he is good or bad form. Scoring runs in tough situations or big games should be classed as 'clutch performances'.
Either way, the big runs that some of the guys got ended up not coming when it was really needed.

The most important thing I feel is that context is important and rarely incorporated in fan comments.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYq6auq5cyQ (Jaylen Brown, 2024 NBA Finals MVP)

User avatar
zimbos_05
Posts: 3158
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2012 6:00 am

Re: Where to from here?

Post by zimbos_05 »

TapsC2 wrote:
Wed Jul 05, 2023 10:56 am

For me I would personally take Larry's 2 for 46 off 7 overs yesterday compared to Blessing's 0/49 off 9. That is what they produced yesterday. You can't say Larry cost us yesterday. He didn't. He even bowled the guy he dropped. It was the batsmen who failed yesterday.

We only lost 2 games. The Sri Lanka game Larry didn't play and the Scotland game he wasn't bad. It's completely unfair to say he cost us dearly. How exactly?
Happy to agree to disagree. I was talking about the tournament as a whole as well. I've already answered the question of why I think he cost us dearly. Don't expect you to agree but doesn't change my view. I think overall he is a player we should be looking to replace as I don't think he is good enough.

TapsC2
Posts: 2883
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:40 pm

Re: Where to from here?

Post by TapsC2 »

I guess the main question has to be how long the big 3 will stick around for. Especially Raza and Williams. Raza particularly. Do they have it in them to play another 4 years and finish with a home world cup? I doubt it. Maybe Raza could but the other 2 I highly doubt it. These are the conversations that need to happen first before we make our next moves. There is a World Cup next year too. Could that be the time for them? These questions need answers before the way forward can be planned

Post Reply