West Indies tour rumours

[cricket_22001]

Watching the second test, England v Windies, I recall it was stated by Atherton how well the Windies play spin these days because of the slower home pitches. When Moeen Ali came on in the first innings, Brathwaite saw the opportunity to score even hitting 2 sixes. This prompted Atherton's comment. Until then it had been an arm wrestle.
I agree with Kriterion_BD's comment about "a shootout of nerves". How well a batsman can play & how well he can tough it out given pressure around him. That is why the longer game is as much about the mental side as about technique & skill.
There was an article some time ago on Cricinfo about Graham Thorpe's coaching approach. He stated the view had to be taken, not can you play spin, but can you score runs in spinning conditions? Can you score runs in seaming conditions? That is, can you adapt your game to suit the conditions that prevail. Not saying he was right, but an interesting read.

[CrimsonAvenger]

Watching the second test, England v Windies, I recall it was stated by Atherton how well the Windies play spin these days because of the slower home pitches. When Moeen Ali came on in the first innings, Brathwaite saw the opportunity to score even hitting 2 sixes. This prompted Atherton's comment. Until then it had been an arm wrestle.

There's data to back that up. The WI have second best win percentage among all non-SC teams in SC in the last decade:

[jaybro]

The theory that the Windies enjoy hard and fast wickets is false, I remember Marlon Samuels in an interview saying how they enjoyed the pitches in Bangladesh because were similar to ones they had at home. This was a few years back though when the Banga's were still producing flat decks not the turners they enjoy now.

It's hard to know what type of pitch would suit us more but also suit them the least? I don't think a flat deck would suit us as we tried that against NZ & SL and lost all 4 tests. As BD have shown ( common knowledge to most cricket people ) that if you get a pitch that favours the bowlers more so it makes the game closer and there for gives you more chance of winning. I'd go with the same type of pitches we had for the Pakistan series in 2013, we did after all win the 2nd Test and really should have won the 1st.

[CrimsonAvenger]

It's hard to know what type of pitch would suit us more but also suit them the least?

The more important question is, even if we do know this, do we have the expertise and capability to prepare such a pitch now, either at QSC or HSC?

Common sense would have suggested not preparing a spin-friendly track for SL tests, but that is all we could prepare, not the traditional HSC pitch on which we were so successful against the visiting SC teams earlier.

[jaybro]

It's hard to know what type of pitch would suit us more but also suit them the least?

The more important question is, even if we do know this, do we have the expertise and capability to prepare such a pitch now, either at QSC or HSC?

Common sense would have suggested not preparing a spin-friendly track for SL tests, but that is all we could prepare, not the traditional HSC pitch on which we were so successful against the visiting SC teams earlier.

It is possible to transform HSC which in recent years has been versatile. In 2013 against BD & Pakistan we had those pitches that gave a bit of assistance to the seamers whilst also offering runs for 'Good batsman', the spinners also had some success.

Then the following year against South Africa they prepared a real slow pitch to try and 'negate' the trio of Morkel, Steyn & Philander which was vastly different to the previous year.

The last season against Sri Lanka the pitches were pretty flat from what I can remember ?

[CrimsonAvenger]

True. But what they clearly needed for SL was that 2013 Pak deck. We would have had a major advantage then.

Prepare such a pitch for WI too I'd say, and may the best team win!

While talking about all this though, there is no indication at all if WI are actually coming. However, the Dutch have a stopover on their way to Kenya, so some A team opportunities again for the boys.

[TapsC]

Maybe its a case of our players not being able to handle their pace attack. I would say our batsmen in the middle to lower order play spin better than that raw pace NZ had when they came. I would say Ervine,Taylor(hopefully),Williams,Raza,Waller and PJ play spin better than pace. Plus our spin department (Cremer and his part timers) are more lethal than our current pace attack. Herath was the only real spin bowler who gave them nightmares in that test and he is world class. So maybe its actually a case of playing in conditions that suit us.

It will be about nerves.. Big difference between England and Zimbabwe is that young West Indian team will be expected to whitewash us. The pressure of being favourites can be difficult. I think this is why Afghanistan were beating us to the point where they are now the favourites.

[jaybro]

As I said previously it's very hard to predict what pitch would favour us more so than the Windies. In recent times it's looks like our batsman played well in spinning conditions against Sri Lanka but I feel the conditions were better for batting than for spinners?

Also the last time we played the Windies on raging turners they destroyed us, although you could argue our batsman are better now and Cremer is a better spinner now. Also this Windies side doesn't have Gayle, Darren Bravo, Shiv, Sammy, Samuels or Shillingford ( the chucker ).

We really need to look at how Bangladesh have 'found their identity' and now they prepare pitches that suit their players. Zimbabwe need to find their identity and concentrate on improving their skills to suit a certain game plan and target some home success.

[Black Mamba]

As I said previously it's very hard to predict what pitch would favour us more so than the Windies. In recent times it's looks like our batsman played well in spinning conditions against Sri Lanka but I feel the conditions were better for batting than for spinners?

Also the last time we played the Windies on raging turners they destroyed us, although you could argue our batsman are better now and Cremer is a better spinner now. Also this Windies side doesn't have Gayle, Darren Bravo, Shiv, Sammy, Samuels or Shillingford ( the chucker ).

We really need to look at how Bangladesh have 'found their identity' and now they prepare pitches that suit their players. Zimbabwe need to find their identity and concentrate on improving their skills to suit a certain game plan and target some home success.

Zimbabwe first of all needs four specialist bowlers to do well in test. Raza,Williams and Waller are part time bowlers, can't trouble quality batsman. Chisoro And Cremer should be the spinners with Mumba & Chatara

N Waller
H Masakadza
C Ervine
S Raza
S Williams
P Moor
M Waller
G Cremer
T Chisoro
C Mumba
T Chatara

[pariah]

...Cremer is a better spinner now...

I really don't understand why these myths continue to be perpetuated on ZCF. If Cremer was not captain he would not be Zimbabwe's leading frontline spinner in Test cricket. Who bowls a whole 206 overs in 3 Tests, but has just 19 maidens and is termed "improved"???

What improvement is there if - in the Sub-continent against a SL side terminally low on morale and in all sort of problems - Cremer picked up just 4 wickets in 5 ODIs, being wicketless in 2 matches, and only once did he get 2 wickets??? Who gets 9 wickets in a test match in the sub-continent, but does so at an Average of 31? Heck his Strike Rate IN THE SUB-CONTINENT was 48!!!

If one is gauging Cremer's improvement as a case of where he was when SL toured ZIM to where he is after ZIM toured SL, then maybe that can be stomached...provided one overlooks Africa-Asia. Then Cremer got 11 wickets at an Average of 40, and Strike Rate of 64. So some "improvement" in SL from this.

Plus our spin department (Cremer and his part timers) are more lethal than our current pace attack.

I can understand this statement only because the "current" seam attack you refer to didn't comprise:
Panyangara
Chatara
Shingi

In Tests Williams had a 56avg+98SR vs SL in ZIM, then a 52avg+100SR in SL. To use the word lethal anywhere near impotent batsman Sean Williams's bowling is not fair at all (especially when one considers the kind of words that were attributed to Utseya). There is a very strong possibilty that at this rate, Sean Williams will soon be the only bowler to bowl over 200 overs in Tests and have bowling average and Strike Rate both above 100! How useless can one's bowling be if you get 6 wickets overall as a part-timer but still amass such horrible stats?

Raza didn't play in the Tests vs SL in ZIM (thank goodness - for his bowling), but went wicketless in 31 expensive overs conceding 118 runs in SL, entirely negating his century in the process.

I've said it long ago, and many times before on this forum - Cremer's selection automatically guarantees the opposition 100 runs, and it will be a shock if Zimbabwe EVER win a Test match in which he bowls over 25 overs in any innings(even on an Indian minefield). I will stand by that "fact" even if Zimbabwe face Ireland, Afghanistan, Scotland or Netherlands, Nepal or Hong Kong! In fact, in his 16 Tests, the only Test Zimbabwe have won was when Cremer bowled just 6 overs(with Shingi mopping up every BD batsman that mattered).

That being said both the WI and ZIM have decent spinners. I would say thats even, possibly even Cremer giving ZIM the slight advantage.

This comment right here takes the cake

The Proteas may as well bring back Harmer, Botha, Piedt and Tahir! If not even Duminy can be our lead spinner.