[Series Thread] U19 Quadrangular in India

[Googly]

Bowling stats

:,,,,,,,,,, :Innings,,,,,overs,,,,maidens,,,,runs,,,,wickets,,,,BB,,,,Ave,,,,Economy,
Jongwe,,,,,,,2,,,,,,,,,,,14, ,,,,,,,0, ,,,,,,,108,,,,,,,4,,,,,,,,2/49,,,,27,,,,,,,7.7,
Lake,,,,,,,,,,4,,,,,,,,,,,21,,,,,,,,,1,,,,,,,,,173,,,,,,,3, ,,,,,,2/11,,,,,57, ,,,,,7.9 ,
geyle,,,,,,,,,5,,,,,,,,,,,34,,,,,,,,,0, ,,,,,,,,198,,,,,,3,,,,,,,,3/32,,,,,,66,,,,,,5.8,
Diplock,,,,,,,2, ,,,,,,,,,7,,,,,,,,,,0, ,,,,,,,,63,,,,,,,,1, ,,,,,,1/35,,,,,63,,,,,,,9.0,
Kwinje,,,,,,,,3,,,,,,,,,,18,,,,,,,,,0,,,,,,,,,107,,,,,,,1,,,,,,,,,1/52,,,,107,,,,,,6.0,
Musoko,,,,,,,4, ,,,,,,,,23,,,,,,,,,,1,,,,,,,,,,131, ,,,,,1, ,,,,,,,1/48,,,,131,,,,,,5.7,
Bell,,,,,,,,,, 4,,,,,,,,,,31,,,,,,,,, 0,,,,,,,,,,181,,,,,,,1,,,,,,,,,1/42,,,,181,,,,,,5.8,
Myers,,,,,,,,,1,,,,,,,,,,2,,,,,,,,,, 0,,,,,,,,,,,16, ,,,,,,0,,,,,,,,,,,
Chitumba,,,,1,,,,,,,,,,,,3, ,,,,,,,0,,,,,,,,,,,25,,,,,,,,0,
Mumba,,,,,,,1,,,,,,,,,,,,2,,,,,,,,,0,,,,,,,,,,,31,,,,,,,0,
Burl,,,,,,,,,,,3,,,,,,,,,,,9,,,,,,,,,,0,,,,,,,,,,,67,,,,,,,0,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,7.4,
Nyathi,,,,,,,,3,,,,,,,,,,8.1,,,,,,,,1,,,,,,,,,,,75,,,,,,,,0,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,9.0,,

[eugene]

Malcolm Lake didn't exactly cover himself in glory this series.

[betterdays]

Googly on the money as always.

ie you agree with him

There are very few opinions which are not on someone's money and googly, as always, presents his case well ... but there are contradictions (or at least allowances)

It's very interesting how many really talented guys we have from such a small base. There should be a study done on Zimbos. Very talented bunch

ie if the base was expanded then it goes without saying that so would the strength and depth of Zim cricket. A failing of previous administrations whose players competed ok (as does the current team) without successfully selling this to the majority. the team were sort of managed well but cricket in Zimbabwe was not

By playing for Zim they are putting their faith in an administration that has let them down repeatedly in the past, and will continue to do so in the future. Once committed they are stuck. The real question should be posed to the administration itself. If they are committed patriots and love and understand the game then they should attempt to run it properly or step aside for people that are capable of doing so.

the very reason the old admin guard was eventually replaced: inability to come to terms with changing realities including the above failure of not expanding the base. Some play for Zim because their options are less infinite

The real question is not why are players not supporting their Country but why are they? Can you answer that one?

but many of them don't support their country ... the support themselves then go on to support other countries.
for others 'home' also has a very strong pull though for some (like yourself)
but this is, maybe, where I fail to come to terms with modern realities ... whatever happened to "ask not what my country can do for me, but..."

You are suggesting that all players should just sit here and wait for a miraculous turn around. There's also the small issue of trying to make a living. In the old days there was no professional cricket and guys were pure amateurs, yet the standard was high? That's pretty weird isn't it? That indicates a lost cricketing culture. ... The ZC does not have a God Given right to have the unswerving allegiance of all the players regardless of how they behave and manage the Union. ... In fairness the economy was such that they all had decent jobs that they could live off, and in many instances the bosses were understanding about cricket commitments. ... Their track record speaks for itself.

Apart from the fact that it seemed clear sloandog was not suggesting the players wait for things to turn around (that'd be a wait that most in a position not having to - would not) but not take a ride on the back of train many would like to be on only to jump off (leaving a half full train) before it reaches its destination.
Apart from that, you have kind of answered some of your own questions there. cricketing 'culture' was the domain of the few and mainly nurtured amoung them ... since those days the economy (not only in Zim of course - but compounded there by Zimbabwe's leaders inabilities) has taken a sad turn for the worse ... and the past administration's failure to engage significantly with the majority has left a cultural vacuum in cricket
- and yet talent keeps coming through partly due to philanthropy, partly due to some decisions this board made years ago and despite the other increasing failures of this board and I am sure there are other reasons too

What exactly is the cause?

it was fairly evident when sloandog said it ... the 'cause' is Zimbabwe cricketing culture, its success, the strengthening and deepening of its talent pool!
How do the likes of Ballance tick those criteria?
- contribution to zim's cricketing culture? sub-zero, they are creating a culture in which it is evident you can use ZC then leave once done
- contribution to Zimbabwe's talent pool? non-zero (but pretty close to 0), the fact that players play against them on occasion is as far as it goes (as the franchises can and have brought in from abroad then his contribution in that sense seems less valuable)
- contribution to Zimbabwe's success? non-zero (but pretty close to 0), his contribution extends no further than it does in the above point

now, does that matter? I don't know ... but as a cricket fan rather than having any close emotional attachments to the current players or their families it leaves me ambivalent at best and unsympathetic at worst

Maybe they are using the system to some degree, and keeping their options alive here in case they don't make it elsewhere or the situation improves here or worsens there. ZC actually condone this, as evidenced by the selection of Nel, Lake, Burl, Geyle and Bell in U19 and their behind the doors attempts to get Balance and Co back here.

So, is this a good thing or a bad thing? By all your accounts there is no redeeming features in ZC administration
...which leads me to another question: I have asked this of hhm and I am asking you now - do you know actual figures of the cost of admin salaries within ZC

They have no choice as they and the country are not offering a viable alternative. If this is your opinion then what's your stance on the millions of black people living in the diaspora? It's the same thing isn't it? Why don't they come back here with their skills and get the country back on it's feet? The answer is obvious and it applies to cricket as well.

tbh, most of the black zimbos I know in the UK are well educated and came to the UK in the early 90s when they were fed up with being better qualified and experienced than the business owners kids (who would walk straight into a middle management position post education...) sometimes these were kids they'd gone to school with and knew of their academic 'prowess' - and found it just too frustrating.

Life is not like that in Zim now so - the newer bunch? I know of fewer, but of those I do know most found that there was simply nothing they could do in zim (not that they were unsatisfied in their jobs - they simply didn't have one).
Now, I don't particularly care that these guys leave but national sport is in the public eye (ie it is something average-joe can invest in) so I cannot liken them to a guy going abroad and looking for a care job or some admin job abroad. There is a difference in giving what you can and getting nothing back, and taking what you can and giving nothing back. Some of these guys (and I am talking middle-class folk) can frustrate the average cricket punter.
It's not like Zim is the only board that doesn't look after its own - but it's one of the few which loses players at the speed at which ZC loses players it has invested something in ... partly because the average Bangladeshi or W'Indian does not have simple means to change alliegences as easily as your cricket playing St John's boy. How far am I missing the mark?

There are hundreds of thousands of black guys that would cut their arms off for a British passport but if a white guy exercises any UK options available to him he gets cussed for being a white piece of shit and to go back to England and he's not required here. Sadly this racial rhetoric will never end either. I'm not suggesting that you are an extremist but you are echoing a sentiment that is flawed.

again within your statement you provide the answer and therefore largely eliminate any potential 'flaw' - one set of guys would cut off their arms but CAN'T - the other could leave anytime but DON'T!
these guys exercising UK options have waited around to see what the country can do for them ... when it seems the country can't/won't do anything, they go ... it's an option they've been entitled and able to take at any time but it seems that there are still a few schools worth sticking it out for. When they do go I have always just shrugged my 'meh' - expected, who's next up for a spot in the team?

[Googly]

don't think many, if any, of the other sides are different. Not many junior Internationals. I'm not sure what happened to the U15 World Cup?
The stats make pretty dismal reading. On the bowling side they highlight the need for a top spinner. Myers and Nel were the two leggies, but it doesn't appear as if Nel bowled? Myers didn't bowl many either? Leg spin is largely a confidence thing and the bowler needs to be mentally tough enough to cope with going for a few, the Captain also needs to be tough enough to not panic and take him off prematurely (not easy to do!). They both bowl in the low to mid 70's. Against quality men batters you are going to get a hiding unless you bowl in the low 80's. I don't know the bowlers from the other countries but it does look as if the leading wicket takers were mostly seamers, which is pretty strange for Indian pitches. Maybe someone could check this out??
Geyle and Bell bowled plenty overs but the rest of the spinners hardly bowled anything? Without being there and seeing the track, the opposition or how our spinners were actually bowling it's difficult to comment but it does seem very odd.
With the possible exception of Jongwe, the seamers didn't fare much better either. Did they all bowl that poorly in every game? Were their seamers quicker than ours?
I know our guys tend to panic and are not patient (or good enough) enough, to bowl consistent line and length. I have seen Lake make too many bowling changes as well, again easy to criticize that from the sidelines, but it would appear that he was defaulting to his mates, Jongwe, Geyle, Burl, Bell, himself and Musoko from last world cup, meaning he had no faith in the new blokes. Whether this was merited or should have been addressed is unknown.
Clearly the opposition batters were real quality as well but they could not have been that good surely? The stock seam ball is slightly back of a length just outside off. You really need guys that can do this virtually every ball. You can set a field to this all day.
Anyhow, for whatever the reasons, clearly the opposition batters found our bowling attack very much to their liking. In fairness these are the strongest teams in the world so these guys are obviously very good attacking batsmen.
Clearly these sides are much stronger than ours but to be bitch slapped into touch like this warrants further investigation. We were destroyed in every game by huge margins by their batters.
Clearly from how many times Diplock got to bowl they have no faith in him (so why pick him in the first place?) and he won't be getting a second shot at this. It's very unfair on the guy, in my opinion.
At least one other seamer should be replaced as well. For my money King and Evans from St. John's should be penned in right now. One thing is for certain, and that is they can't do worse.
As far as the spinners go I'm at a bit of a loss. Geyle is a half decent spinner (stats would indicate not), and could potentially make runs in Dubai on a flat deck. He's a one dimensional front footed hitter and we'll have to hope they bowl it in his arc for two weeks. I don't know?
Bell and Myers have had their chances and someone else needs a turn. For my money it's Ives from St. George's, and he's a better batsman than Bell.
As a fact we are short in the spin dept. The selectors don't like the youth but Huchu is an option, he's a good fielder but will be out of his depth with the bat. Hopper has done well (St' John's) this season but he's not quite there, too erratic with line and length, bowls it too slow against men, and not enough turn. He is good though, great fielder as well. Ives should be penned in. Don't know about the rest.

The batting is a disaster.
Burl is fantastic. He is going to be awesome.
Gumbe clearly has what it takes as well.
Nel is ok. Fairly compact, half decent technique but clearly struggling at this level. He may well improve though. He can't play off his front foot. He's short and has been a back footed player, on a length he's bizarrely at sea.
Lake- not sure what to say? All that talent and hardly a run to show for it (for years!). If there is a decent alternative I don't think he should remain as captain (burl?). He needs to concentrate on batting and bowling. He's lucky we have no depth or he wouldn't be in the side. If you make single figure scores for years then you are simply not playing percentage cricket shots early on in your innings. There's no doubting his ability though.
From the stats, which don't tell the whole story, the rest of the batters are absolutely nowhere.
Possible replacements for me are Murray, Welch and Byrom. Sadly all from St. John's. The last two being 15 and 16 respectively. Murray has proven to be a devastating opener, hits it a mile, lacks a bit of technique and not sure if he is ready for the next level. What does it matter? he can't do worse.
Welch and Byrom are both technically the best batsmen in the country at U19 level, better than most franchise players as well. I'm just talking technique here though. Whether they could make the jump to this level is a question. I say yes they can and had the selectors had a bit of faith they would have been that much better in February. Again, what does it matter, they cannot do worse.
There's Mambo and Van Leeuwen from Hellenic as well. They are similar to Murray in that they can T off. This is at first team level though. World class bowlers will NOT put it where you like it, and they will figure that out in a few balls. You need to have technique, doesn't have to be perfect, but you need to be solid in defense and know your scoring areas, and u need more than one of these!

My picks are 6 white guys and two black guys, purely on merit. I'm not suggesting you need to replace 8 guys but certainly 3 if not 4 need to go. I guess there is another round of trials if they have the time, money and inclination to do it over. The new team needs to play lots of games as well, it would be good to include them in the franchise games if that ever starts. They need specialist bowling, batting and fielding coaches as well. They need to work on techniques, strength and conditioning, mental strength etc etc. There is national pride at stake here (if we have any left!!) and this is not a bad side. The results would indicate otherwise but there's plenty of talent to work with. No prima donnas, shirkers or charlatans! 3-4 months of hard work with professional coaches in attendance and we can improve dramatically on this as this has been shameful. My guess is that it will be just more of the same though.

[betterdays]

ZC claim that the one thing they have done is to bring cricket to the people, but even this is a blatant lie swallowed by most.

the paragraph you wrote following this sentence may well be true - I think it is fairly common knowledge that nothing in Zimbabwe functions very well so there is no reason to believe that it functions in this bubble ; ... but you are manipulating evidence every bit as much as you accuse them of doing so ... it is very clear that there are more black players playing at a higher level now in the franchises than there were before. Whether there will be in future is another matter that does not discredit the fact that zim can form a team of black players with reasonable bench strength (and I refer to 'by zim's standards') that is able to beat Pk - this was not possible in the past.

If you have figures of how many black players played first class cricket (or even those in the feeder clubs) in 1995 1999 2003 and 2012 that show that in fact the number of black players is the same (the numbers will suffice - I am just about smart enough to know that the exodus would have made created space in FC cricket so including club numbers should be sufficient evidence)

this is the following paragraph:

ZC claim that the one thing they have done is to bring cricket to the people, but even this is a blatant lie swallowed by most. It would be so easy to do a head count of black schoolboy cricketers. Getting a couple of dozen together for a promotional video is not what I'm talking about either. I'm talking about kids who actually play and practice a couple of times a week. Go down to Takas (the ONLY high density club!)on any given afternoon and count how many schoolboys are being coached and are playing in their broken nets. For that matter, go to any black school with a broken nets and count how many guys are enjoying themselves having a hit. We are so fucked here that it makes me want to burst into tears.

[zimfan1]

Van Leeuwen from Hellenic is one who is grabing the headlines in Zimbabwe at the moment

[Googly]

@ Betterdays
Your posts at me are always quite difficult to follow. I’m never quite sure whether you are half agreeing or half disagreeing. You seem more bent on picking holes in not what I say but how I say it, much like a school teacher. Nonetheless you have some good points.
I don’t know what they spend on admin, they’ve halved it, but it’s still a lot and can be further reduced.
I’m on my own here but don’t believe that taking cricket to the people is the way forward. For sure deepen the talent pool but if deepening and expanding it are mutually incompatible then deepen it rather. We don’t have the funds, expertise, facilities or interest at grass roots to do both. The trick is to keep it small, tight and strong. The majority are never going to take to cricket, especially now. The passing interest was when we had a strong national team and people felt they were missing out on something and the desire to break what was (is it still?) considered an elitist sport that epitomized the hated colonial era.
The “ask not what your country can do for you…” is only really applicable when the people in charge are pulling in the same direction, which they are not!
I totally disagree with your statement about there being an exodus in the 90’s because there was a ceiling on black advancement in business because kids were inheriting businesses or being afforded much greater opportunities than others. For sure it must have happened a few times but not 1 million times, that is way too simplistic.
Ballance is a guy who got an opportunity he would have been stupid to pass up, he hardly used the system. How would he do that, by taking someone else’s place? Well he’s gone, where’s this super talented guy that has been living in his shadow?
I’m not seeing ANY good things ZC are doing, past or present. Sorry but just my opinion, largely borne out by what u see now.

[Googly]

ZC claim that the one thing they have done is to bring cricket to the people, but even this is a blatant lie swallowed by most.

the paragraph you wrote following this sentence may well be true - I think it is fairly common knowledge that nothing in Zimbabwe functions very well so there is no reason to believe that it functions in this bubble ; ... but you are manipulating evidence every bit as much as you accuse them of doing so ... it is very clear that there are more black players playing at a higher level now in the franchises than there were before. Whether there will be in future is another matter that does not discredit the fact that zim can form a team of black players with reasonable bench strength (and I refer to 'by zim's standards') that is able to beat Pk - this was not possible in the past.

If you have figures of how many black players played first class cricket (or even those in the feeder clubs) in 1995 1999 2003 and 2012 that show that in fact the number of black players is the same (the numbers will suffice - I am just about smart enough to know that the exodus would have made created space in FC cricket so including club numbers should be sufficient evidence)

this is the following paragraph:

ZC claim that the one thing they have done is to bring cricket to the people, but even this is a blatant lie swallowed by most. It would be so easy to do a head count of black schoolboy cricketers. Getting a couple of dozen together for a promotional video is not what I'm talking about either. I'm talking about kids who actually play and practice a couple of times a week. Go down to Takas (the ONLY high density club!)on any given afternoon and count how many schoolboys are being coached and are playing in their broken nets. For that matter, go to any black school with a broken nets and count how many guys are enjoying themselves having a hit. We are so fucked here that it makes me want to burst into tears.

Ok here u have a good point, and I have been unfair. What the boys did against Pakistan had me dancing in my living room. It was awesome. What I enjoyed the most was the camera in the change rooms. I actually had tears in my eye, amazing scenes, and I was full of pride. And for sure this would never have happened a few years ago. Was it necessary to tear down a working system to get to this? I don't think so.

[Googly]

And if there had been 14 black guys in that change room I would have been no less proud.

[betterdays]

I love your long posts genuinely but as I disagree with a) some of the content and b) some of the way your present it - it can be hard to organise a coherent or cohesive response (as there is usually so much said). If I am half doing one then then you can be sure I am half doing the other (my mum was a teacher so maybe it rubbed off - sorry if it sounds in any way patronising, it ain't intended to be) but I am not bent on anything. The incoherence is my failing!

I genuinely want to know what the admin costs have been [I was trying to get this info from ZCF Outkast at the bottom of Conant's article - unsuccessfully] cos it seem to be the basis of many a criticism levelled at ZC. It is good to know they are cutting costs - maybe too little too late!!

deepening rather than broadening the pool? (you have at least three thoughts on this - how do I frame my response?): Yes, deepening is most important! ...but through your observation about 5000 Indian cricketers producing 20 elite it seems to indicate that the two are not mutually exclusive - in fact they are inseparable...on the other hand you say there is not enough "funds, expertise, facilities or interest at grass roots to do both. The trick is to keep it small, tight and strong." I tend to go with the first (Indian) arguement, if the system withstands it, it will serve better in the long run (even more so now that Zimbabwe is a crawling economy and those with means [your strong, tight circle] leave - understandably)

the tiny crowds seem to bear out your lack of interest ... and if that continues then it will be ZCs biggest failure

mmm, pretty sure there was large opposition to the Vietnam war but I guess Kennedy was using the fear of communism to galvanise people into working together (+ the war had not 'officially' begun). I was being flippant but I think of it more as a rallying cry to arms when people are on the verge of dissent!

I did not say there was an exodus in the 90's (the 'exodus' i refered to was the cricketing one so labelled) but certainly some well educated people left as a result of diminished opportunites and frustration in the '90s. I was telling anecdotes (not from one or two fellas either - though of course not millions) about people left in the '90s - black folk with good jobs here in the UK now - out of frustration. It is a time I can speak more confidently about from experience and I know there was a LOT of frustration amoung the black political and wealthy (privately educated) classes. I don't know what is simplistic about it!? It simply occurred ?... I don't know of a single white guy who ended up jobless in the early to mid 90s (or before) - including many with awful results educationally. It's now irrelevant anyway...

You speak of national representation like a job at 'Nandos'. I genuinely don't care about Ballance himself but he got the opportunity in part because of his zim background [Jarvis certainly] but now talks of being 100% English ... meh. We don't know where the supertalented guy is yet because last season the spot was not open - maybe I can point him out at the end of this season (should it start) ... what I know for sure is, the talent taking that spot does not line up for zim

So, them trying to woo Ballance back doesn't count as a good thing? Actually, I don't care for it one way or another ... what we see now though is a result of layers of causes and effect (going back who knows how far) that - if I haven't already said - is somewhat obscured by retrospective distortion. But it seems unlikely to start moving forward.

I get the feeling your last post about the changing room is true ... although I did once question [and would again] your position that no black guy would make the zim team on merit (a statement influential enough to inspire a tagline from Eugene) I get the distinct feeling from your posts that you are a passionate zimbo (not that my opinion here matters one way or the other - I am simply saying!)